Michael Luther and other vote changing cards

So this came up yesterday. I was under the impression that vote changing cards like Michael Luther/kindred manipulation wouldn't work if the vampire in question had abstained. I was told I was wrong by the people I was playing with. Still, I could have sworn seeing those effects played as aforementioned in a NAC game some years back.

So, can you change the votes of a vampire that has abstained thus far (i.e. has cast no votes)?

Only if there is "This can force ... to cast votes"

See justification here www.tomshardware.co.uk/forum/74336-13-distant-friend

Malcolm wrote:

So, can you change the votes of a vampire that has abstained thus far (i.e. has cast no votes)?

Camarilla: You may tap Michael during a referendum to change the votes of a Camarilla vampire to votes of your choice.

No votes =/= "the votes"
i.e. If a vampire abstains, there are no "the votes" to change.

Compare and contrast with Distant Friend:
As above, and you can force the chosen vampire to cast his or her votes when you burn this card.

Thanks both of you. I had thought I remembered correctly, but it's good to have citations.

Malcolm wrote:

So this came up yesterday. I was under the impression that vote changing cards like Michael Luther/kindred manipulation wouldn't work if the vampire in question had abstained. I was told I was wrong by the people I was playing with. Still, I could have sworn seeing those effects played as aforementioned in a NAC game some years back.

So, can you change the votes of a vampire that has abstained thus far (i.e. has cast no votes)?

No. [LSJ 20032105]