Questions re: bleed action modifiers

A minion is bleeding me. I fail to block. I ask "how much is the bleed for?" After receiving the answer I reduce the bleed. Can the actor now play additional modifiers to increase the bleed or have they given their "final" answer?

Assuming they can play action modifiers in the above scenario consider: a minion is bleeding me for three. I fail to block and ask "how much is the bleed for?". It's for 3. I reduce it. The actor plays a mod to increase it to 4-6. Can i play Archon Investigation even though, prior to the playing of the action mod, the bleed would be resolving for 3 or less?

Lambach wrote:

A minion is bleeding me. I fail to block. I ask "how much is the bleed for?" After receiving the answer I reduce the bleed. Can the actor now play additional modifiers to increase the bleed or have they given their "final" answer?

They can increase it.

What's happened here is roughly:

Play card, announce action shenanigans.
Move to post-announce stuff. Impulse with acting Methuselah.
Acting Methuselah passes, asking for blocks.
Blocks declined.
Impulse is back with the acting Methuselah.
Acting Methuselah declines to play any effects at this point. Impulse passes to the other Methuselahs in the appropriate sequence.
The target plays Telepathic Counter.
This means the impulse goes back to the acting Methuselah.
The acting Methuselah plays Conditioning.
Acting Methuselah passes the impulse.
Impulse goes back to the rest of the tablet, in the appropriate sequence.


If, in any given timing window, the acting Methuselah declines to play an effect (so passing the impulse to the other players in sequence), and then the rest of the table all pass, the timing window closes. So for example, if you (acting) decline to play any pre-range effects and ask your opponent if they're playing any and they decline to do so, you move on to pre-range. (And technically the rest of the table need to decline to do so too, but it's vanishingly rare that they'd play something. Maybe a copy of Frenzy, that ended up being in seventy bajillion sets, for no reason I can understand.)

Lambach wrote:

Assuming they can play action modifiers in the above scenario consider: a minion is bleeding me for three. I fail to block and ask "how much is the bleed for?". It's for 3. I reduce it. The actor plays a mod to increase it to 4-6. Can i play Archon Investigation even though, prior to the playing of the action mod, the bleed would be resolving for 3 or less?

Sure, you can do that.

AI doesn't care when (prior to resolution, see Spying Mission) the bleed gets increased - whether from an inherent modifier, tapping Brigitte Gebauer during announcement, from the action card, from another minion lending you some +bleed somehow. It just cares that you're currently being bled for an amount, and the bleed hasn't yet reached resolution. Which it hasn't, because if it had reached resolution, the acting Methuselah can't play Conditioning.

In this circumstance, it would also be entirely legal to play Deflection, instead of AI.


(The bit about Spying Mission is that AI requires a minion to be "attempting", and by the time the +bleed from burning an in-play Spying Mission kicks in, the action is already successful. vekn.net/card-rulings/card-rulings-p-to-z "Archon Investigation cannot be played after a Spying Mission is burned (for +2 bleed), since the bleed is already resolved at that point. [LSJ 19980105]")

Is there somewhere where I can find the full "impulse" rules? I didn't see them in my cursory look at the rulebook in posing this question. So like if someone is bleeding me, I decline/fail to block/bounce. As I'm removing my pool counters can they then play a modifier to increase the bleed?

How I usually do this is saying like 'no block, total?' while possibly taking the current bleed amount worth of beads from my pool to hand while waiting to hear if they play mods. Then after they declare the total bleed amount (possibly playing a mod) I then get the last option to either take it in or bounce/reduce and if I don't play any cards, then they can't play any mods anymore either.

Note:
Anu and serena the white rock due to the timing here.

You get bled for 2, reduce. 3, pump and AI. Bleeds of one are the only bleeds that will feel "safe" unless you already played an AI.

Lambach wrote:

Is there somewhere where I can find the full "impulse" rules? I didn't see them in my cursory look at the rulebook in posing this question. So like if someone is bleeding me, I decline/fail to block/bounce. As I'm removing my pool counters can they then play a modifier to increase the bleed?

It's basically all just the practical impact of 1.6.1.5 - if, at any given point, you're trying to determine who goes next, the acting Methuselah gets first shout. If the acting Methuselah plays an effect in that given timing window, they get the next opportunity to play an effect. When they pass, it goes to the other Methuselahs in sequence (depending on whether it's a directed or undirected action, and who the targets are). We typically talk about whose "go" it is by saying they have the 'impulse'. If any of them plays an effect, the impulse 'resets' back to the acting Methuselah, and so on.

The bit about "in a given timing window" probably warrants a slightly fuller explanation. Imagine that you're before range is determined. (And for the sake of simplicity, no-one else on the table is going to play anything like Nosferatu Putrescence.)

MethA is acting, MethB is the opponent.

Pre-range. Impulse is with MethA.
MethA: I play Carrion Crows. Impulse -> MethA.
A: I play Torn Signpost. Impulse -> MethA.
A: I play Drawing out the Beast. Impulse -> MethA.
A: I pass. (Typically indicated by them stopping playing cards, or asking the other Methuselah if they're playing anything, or similar.)
Impulse -> MethB.
B: I play Terror Frenzy. Impulse -> MethA.
A: I play Increased Strength. Impulse -> MethA.
A: I pass. Impulse -> MethB.
B: I play Illusions of the Kindred.

All of those cards share the same timing - before range is determined.

However, each of those cards could be cancelled, and that creates another timing window.

So:

A: I play Torn Signpost. Impulse of the 'before range is determined' window is with MethA.
However, in the 'as the card is played' timing window...
B: I play Direct Intervention. (In the 'as played' window.)

Technically, B needed to wait for A to pass in the 'as played' window - because, like every other timing window, A had the priority. But that is rarely used.

Imagine two players (B and C) on the table both wanted to play Direct Intervention, and really, really cared which one of them did it. (Get the card out of their hand, manipulate their pool total for Parity Shift, whatever.)

A: I play Torn Signpost. (Before range window still with MethA.)
'As played' window.
A: implicitly passes. Impulse for 'as played' goes to B.
B: I play Direct Intervention. Impulse for 'as played' goes to A.
A, B and C now probably all pass in the as played window.

So C doesn't get to play his DI in the as played window, unless B passes.

And when we go abck out in the the 'before range' window, it's still with MethA to play the next before range effect.

So back to the question part:

Lambach wrote:

So like if someone is bleeding me, I decline/fail to block/bounce. As I'm removing my pool counters can they then play a modifier to increase the bleed?

If you decline to block, the impulse goes back to the acting Methuselah to play effects. So typically, they'll wait to play Threats until after you've declined to block. (But they could play it sooner.)

So:

B: I don't block.
(And implicitly the rest of the table doesn't block.)
Impulse for ordinary playing of effects goes to A.
A: I play Conditioning. Impulse goes to A.
A: I pass. Impulse goes to B.
B: I play Deflection. Impulse goes back to A. (And now the order will go A, then C, then others, because C is now the target.)


But consider:

B: I don't block.
(The rest of the table doesn't block.)
Impulse with A.
A: I pass.
B: I pass.
(The rest of the table passes.)
Timing window closes, because everyone has passed. So now A can't play Conditioning, because everyone has passed.


A further important point is that the decision to not block is final. But the decision not to bounce or play other effects isn't. So if the impulse comes back to you again for some reason, you can change your mind.

Consider:

B: I don't block.
(The rest of the table doesn't block.)
Impulse with A.
A: I play Conditioning. Impulse -> A.
A: I pass. Impulse -> B.
B: I pass. Impulse -> C.
C: I pass. Impulse -> D.
D: I play Folderol. Impulse -> A.
A: Dammit. I pass. Impulse -> B.
B: *thinks "Oh well, now the bleed is only for (whatever the amount is), MethC can take that bleed, and still be high enough for me to call Parity Shift on him when I get my turn"*
B: I play Deflection to C. Impulse -> A.


Similarly, at this point, B could play Telepathic Counter (instead of Deflection) or something like that, if they decided to. If they played multiple Telepathic Counters (across several minions), it goes:

B: I play Telepathic Counter. Impulse -> A.
A: I pass. Impulse -> B.
B: I play another Telepathic Counter. Impulse -> A.
A: I pass. Impulse -> B.
B: I play a third Telepathic Counter. Impulse -> A.
A: I pass. Impulse -> B.
B: I pass.

(In practice, the "I pass" declarations are often understood by Meth A not taking the opportunity to do or say anything while B replaces their card, or similar. But 1.6.1.5 can resolve who goes first, if they both want to play something.)