Carrion Crows & First Strike Strikes (Not Anaesthetic Touch)

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

The rules provide no overarching reason why the damage from Carrion Crows...

Yes, there is.

Strike resolution occurs simultaneously, except for a few special cases (see Strike Effects, sec 6.4.5).

Carrion Crows is not a special case. Ergo, it occurs during [normal] strike resolution.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

During X is always interpreted as "at some point before X ends" in all other places in the rules.

Except that, unlike other phases, we have an explicit statement that strike resolution is simultaneous.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

The rules provide no overarching reason why the damage from Carrion Crows:

If this upsets you so, then follow the explicit ruling explaining how this works from twenty years ago that has been re-affirmed multiple times since.

James, and Jeff,

Both of you dodge the obvious in that rule.

Strikes are resolved simultaneously. Carrion Crows is not a strike. Therefore the rule "Strikes are resolved simultaneously" should not be applied to a non-strike.

There is no term for environmental damage in the rules (or CRR) with a definition. There is also no timing given to environmental damage beyond the fact that it must be handled in a damage resolution (which is ill defined in the CRR and in the Rules).

Also by analogy with OtH, Carrion Crows legitimately creates an effect later in the combat since it was not cancelled. The damage of Carrion Crows exists in the Damage Resolution Step of the combat as soon as it is not cancelled in the Before Range Step (cards have their effects resolved immediately remember?). So, by the OtH scenario, there is no way to escape the damage from Carrion Crows once the card is played...

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Strikes are resolved simultaneously. Carrion Crows is not a strike. Therefore the rule "Strikes are resolved simultaneously" should not be applied to a non-strike.

Strikes are resolved in the following order:

i. Strike: Combat Ends.
ii. Any strike done with first strike.
iii. Any other strikes.

The damage from Carrion Crows resolves at iii. (normal strike resolution). So if the opposing minion is sent to torpor by first strike then iii. does not occur in accordance with "If either of the combatants is burned or goes to torpor during the course of combat, combat ends (go to step VI.E)." — E. being the end of the round.

So the step in combat that Carrion Crows would resolve never occurs, pending effect or otherwise.

Ke,
It's not that I don't understand how people have said 'it must work'. That isn't the argument.

The argument is mostly that the rules do not tell me this. None of the rules tell me this. From reading the cards and the Rulebook, I cannot get to this conclusion without error. From reading the card and the Rulebook I am left with the problem that I keep coming back to:

1) The rules tell me when STRIKES resolve.
2) Carrion Crows is not a STRIKE.

Result: There is no specific time in the rules where Carrion Crows must resolve.

When you bring in the 'speed of strikes', that is an order in which they must be resolved. It in fact, based on plenty of other non-combat scenarios, suggests that in VTES once something is 'queued to occur' it cannot be avoided (OtH thread for starters, but also Mandatory Actions, Smiling Jack-type card text, and so on) unless there is a point where two things are equally logically intended to happen and then either: Thing 1 trumps Thing 2 (Psyche trumps Rotschreck, Psyche trumps Form of Mist's Continue, etc) OR Thing 1 and Thing 2 cannot be chosen between so neither happens and no Thing 3 may be chosen(2 Mandatory Actions solution). Note: Without a speed for non-strike damage explicitly ruled, there is no reason to assume it cannot occur faster than S:CE.

So, considering that there are "During X, Y happens" effects throughout VTES and VTES has been set up in the past to treat "Y happens" as an unavoidable (in general) it seems at least incongruous that combat should completely subvert this principle.

The easiest solutions include:

1) Define explicitly in the rules the 'speed' of non-strike damage in the Damage Resolution Step (and removes all future need for rulings about how S:CE, S:Torpor, or S:FS & other minion goes to torpor). This is not in the rules at the moment. It should be for clarity of the rules and card design.

2) Define explicitly that all effects that are resolved to occur (i.e. the card is successfully played and its effects are enforced later by card text) earlier in a combat must happen before the requisite combat step or the combat itself can end. This would bring them into line with Actions (Force of Will) and Action modifiers (Loose Cannon, Daring the Dawn, Day Op). The changes should be made either on the card or in the rules. Considering that reprinting is unlikely based on public gossip, then a rules-based solution seems to be the easiest option to change.

Juggernaut1981 wrote:

Result: There is no specific time in the rules where Carrion Crows must resolve.

It's not difficult to assert that "during strike resolution" refers to the normal step for strike resolution (the card doesn't say otherwise). Also, it's only the strike that is resolved first when playing a first strike card as per the rules "A strike done with first strike is resolved before a normal strike."

Seems like a lot of huff and puff over something fairly trivial.