Mirror Walk v. Obedience

Ankha wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Ankha wrote:

I think you give it too much importance, as the "before combat occurs" has no real meaning here. It would otherwise mean that "tapping for a successful block" happens "before combat occurs", which is not the case (they are simultaneous per the Obedience ruling).

Why? It just says when he has the option to burn the blood - before combat occurs. After the action, we're no longer in that window to do that.

I disagree.
The effect is a replacement effect: "instead of". So it's used when the effect that can be replaced happens, that is when he would be tapped.
The "before combat occurs" part is a bit weird since it's at best wrong, since you don't tap before combat occurs, but at the same time.

i'm inclined to agree with Ankha here - as the effect that is triggering Lucas is tapping for successful block so it should be :
Vamp A does stuff
Lucas tries to get in way
Vamp A plays mirror walk
Lucas plays intercept
Vamp A says ok you sucessfully block
Lucas would now tap but uses ability.
Action Ends due to Mirror Walk

otherwise you'd have the mirror walk ending the action prior to Lucas tapping - there should be a trigger window from the tap effect prior to action ending [but before other pre-combat effects].

So Mental Maze can be played on Mirror Walk?

Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or a younger vampire (play before combat, if any).
End the action (with no combat). If this blocking minion is a Follower of Set, this card costs 1 less blood.
As above, and do not tap this blocking vampire.

Mental Maze is played before tapping for the block.

maybe that's something that could be cleaned up a bit timing wise as it's not obvious from the rules how that timing works in terms of cards reactions versus 'reaction' when it comes to action end - but it'd be easy to do the stages in the blocking section of the ruelbook

i have few more questions for you. it was mentioned sooner in this thread, but it's still not completely clear (at least not for me)

Vamp A plays action
Vamp B attempt to block
Vamp A plays MW
Vamp B gets intercept - source may matter (Melange sup)
action is blocked

option 1
A does use text of MW - all cleared above

option 2
A does want to use slave option of his other minion
is this possible? without MW card text of action end kicking in?

option 3
A declares action blocked and then play Change of target and using it's action end effect instead of action end effect from MW. is this possible?

option 4
A declared action blocked uses MW special text to cancel combat and then after canceled combat tries to use special of Ambulance?
Ambulance
Type: Equipment
Cost: 1 pool
Vehicle.
After a combat between this acting minion and a blocking minion, you may tap the Ambulance to continue the action as if unblocked. If the action is blocked again, burn this card. This minion may tap the Ambulance to attempt to burn an incapacitated imbued as a +1 stealth action. A minion may have only one vehicle.


my last question is little bit out of this discussion, but it's related to same phase of game;
A plays action
B block
A declares action blocked and want to use his slave minion
G as a slave of A enters combat with B

may B play cards at this point? there are some other cards that are related to before/after combat phase and acting minion. it's clear for fast reaction and hiddne lurker as those require acting minion in combat, but there are some cards that does not require combat to occur with acting minion actually, see cards extracted below:
Hard Case
Type: Reaction
Requires: Fortitude
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks an ally or younger vampire.
[for] Cancel the resulting combat.
[FOR] As above, and destroy a weapon or vehicle on the acting minion.

possibly only inferior version might be played as superior targets acting minion.

Diabolic Lure
Type: Reaction
Requires: Daimoinon/Auspex
[aus] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
[dai] Requires an infernal vampire. Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks. Put 4 pact counters on the acting minion. If the number of pact counters equals or exceeds his or her capacity or cost, burn them to make him or her infernal.
[DAI] As [dai] above, and the acting minion's controller burns 1 pool.

targets acting minion, while entering combat with slave???

Type: Reaction
Requires: Temporis/Presence
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable by a vampire who successfully blocks.

 This blocking vampire can end combat as a strike during the resulting combat. If he or she does so and the acting minion is an ally or a younger vampire, this blocking vampire untaps.

[tem] This blocking minion sets the range for the first round of the resulting combat. Skip the determine range step for that round.

[TEM] The acting minion doesn't untap during his or her next untap phase.



pre and tem versions might apply. TEM targets acting minion...



Extortion

Type: Reaction

Requires: Serpentis

Cost: 1 blood

Only usable when this vampire successfully blocks (play after combat, if any). Usable by a tapped vampire.

[ser] Put this card on the acting minion. The minion with this card burns an additional blood to untap during his or her untap phase. A Methuselah can burn the Edge to burn all Extortion cards he or she has.

[SER] The acting minion's controller takes control of this card (put this card in play). The controller of this card burns 1 pool during his or her untap phase. He or she can burn the Edge to burn all Extortion cards he or she has.



ser is questionable. SER targets minion controller instead of minion - this does not change with slave rule use, so it might be still valid



there might be some other cards. i found these only at the top of my head.



EDIT: clarification for questions and typo corrections.