file Time for negotiation after playing a card before terms are set

09 May 2014 14:43 - 09 May 2014 14:44 #61997 by Ankha

Nobody is trying to insert a loophole and of course there is room and need for discussion when the widespread reality is that people play it the way you think is illegal.

Source? In Paris, it's not "widespread" at all.

There are three ways of playing Minion Tap (or now more frequently, Villein):

1/ playing the card, replacing the card, then announcing the amount.
2/ playing the card, discussing with people about how many pool you should get, apply the effect then replacing the card
3/ playing the card, announcing the amount, then proceed.

1/ is a common mistake for new players. We (= other more experienced players in Paris) tell them it's illegal, and could be cheating. If you draw a Giant's Blood, you can announce Villein for all for instance.

I've never seen someone play 2/

3/ is the proper way.


As for Pentex subversion, it should be the same. Now some people say that 2/ is "widespread". I disagree.

If I try to sum up the arguments of the pros and cons:

Pros:
- it's faster to play it first, then negociate before terms are declared
- nothing prevent you from negociating between the play of the card, and announcing its effects

Cons:
- it's not faster - it's just as fast. You can negotiate first, then play the card. (Plus, from a strategical point of view it allows you to bluff, and you can back up if it's in fact a bad idea)
- showing the card first can be assimilated to revealing a card to gain an advantage (during negociation vs bluff)
- rules require to play the card and "when it is played" to completely declare the effects.

I assume it's now up to the Rule Team to say what is legal and what is not.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 09 May 2014 14:44 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Brum, Jeff Kuta, Hakuron

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
09 May 2014 17:15 - 09 May 2014 21:44 #61999 by BenPeal
Years ago, I asked the same question of LSJ. A player had played a Deflection fully - showed the card, announced effects, put the card on the table, etc. - but after table negotiation chose to change the target. When presenting the issue to LSJ, I took the same stance as Jeff Kuta, that the rules for playing a card are clear and should be followed.

LSJ's response: "Don't be a zealot."

I'm still in favor of playing by the rules, but I concur that there is an established culture of shorthand and permissiveness in this game. Within that culture, we've gotten along pretty well over the past 20 years with the concept of "how to play a card". If such a situation arose in a tournament, I'm not sure there's much more a judge can do than say, "Announce the terms already and get on with the game.".
Last edit: 09 May 2014 21:44 by BenPeal.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Robert Goudie, KevinM, ThatGuyThere

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
09 May 2014 19:09 - 09 May 2014 19:10 #62001 by ThatGuyThere
Trying to "prevent" negotiations during play seems ... very counter to the nature of V:tES, to me.

But, being more casual than most, I was surprised to learn that revealing cards from my hand to threaten and demoralize my opponents was also forbidden.

I think this is a case where "how the rules are written" and "how the game is played" are very different - and maybe how it's played varies from place to place, a bit. I think in this case, the one of those more likely to change is "how the rules are written".

Maybe there should be a, "Final answer" step when playing a card ... ? Among my play-group, informally, that's putting it on the target / in the ash heap - that's the, "Well, sorry - the choice(s) has been made" point - and the reason we (mostly) play cards by flashing them around the whole table, first.
Last edit: 09 May 2014 19:10 by ThatGuyThere.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
09 May 2014 19:28 - 09 May 2014 19:37 #62002 by Boris The Blade
Allowing later negotiations also makes for faster play: the alternative is to pre-announce every single effect you would like to play, thus doubling the time to resolve anything.

- it's not faster - it's just as fast. You can negotiate first, then play the card. (Plus, from a strategical point of view it allows you to bluff, and you can back up if it's in fact a bad idea)

You can't always do that, because you are not in other player's heads and you cannot always what is worth negotiating for them. Have you ever played against someone asking permission from his prey and predator before hunting for 1?
Last edit: 09 May 2014 19:37 by Boris The Blade.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
09 May 2014 21:53 #62003 by KevinM

If such a situation arose in a tournament, I'm not sure there's much more a judge can do than say, "Announce the terms already and get on with the game.".

Heaven forbid someone actually called me over to judge the playing of a Pentex as described in the OP, but if so, and I had to "correct" the play, I'd also say out loud, "Make sure you announce all the effects of the card while you are playing it, please."

Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas
"Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/
Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017
The following user(s) said Thank You: Pascek

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
10 May 2014 07:35 #62007 by johannes
Here are the relevant parts of the rulebook.

A card is played by placing it face up in the playing area or by showing it to the other players and placing it face up in the ash heap. The player completely declares the effect of the card when it is played.

Whenever you play a library card from your hand, you immediately draw another from your library to replace it (unless card text says otherwise, of course).


So playing the card means revealing it, when it is played the player has to declare the effects of the card and when it is played he immediately draws from the library. Actually the rulebook is not even very clear about first declaring and then replacing, both are attached with a "when" condition, maybe the placement in two different paragraphs can be an argument for this kind of order. It has been clarified multiple times though that declaring happens before replacing.

However the Minion Tap example is largely irrelevant because we are not debating the fact if the card gets declared or replaced first. We are debating if discussion with other players can be part of the declaring step. Nothing in the rulebook refers to this.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Juggernaut1981

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.113 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum