Unexpected Coalition and cards like Scalpel Tongue

Axel von Anders feels like voting a cons boon and his crew of five embraces unexpectedly manages to get one vote each via Unexpected Coalition.

Fredrik the Weak, who's in the claws of the enemy, decides to vote against with his unexpected extra vote and so the coalition fails.

Can Axel von Anders play Scalpel Tongue and punish the weakling for going against the clan, forcing him to abstain, so that his embraces gets the extra votes back?

Unexpected Coalition
Type: Action Modifier/Reaction
Requires: Brujah antitribu
Only usable during a referendum.
Each ready Brujah antitribu gets an additional vote this referendum. When tallying votes, if any Brujah antitribu cast any votes in opposition to this Brujah antitribu's votes (or if this Brujah antitribu abstains), none of the additional votes from this card are counted.

Rarity: SoC:C

Scalpel Tongue
Type: Action Modifier/Reaction
Requires: Celerity & Presence
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable during a referendum.
[cel]

 Choose a vampire who has cast one or more votes in this referendum. The chosen vampire is tapped and abstains during this referendum (this cancels that vampire's votes).

[CEL]
 As above, and the chosen vampire burns 1 blood.



Rarity:  KMW:C  LoB:PI3  Third:PB2



Thanks!

I think the "when tallying votes" bit means that a minion abstaining (either by normal means or by scalpel tongue) at this moment can't cancel the UC votes.

Timo wrote:

I think the "when tallying votes" bit means that a minion abstaining (either by normal means or by scalpel tongue) at this moment can't cancel the UC votes.

Yep, so long as Axel doesnt abstain and the opposing votes arent there when tallying, it works.

Now, if Axel has condemnation: mute, does he count as abstaining? Probably not really, but its hard to figure out what voting in opposition of having negative votes could be.....

Zenedar wrote:

Axel von Anders feels like voting a cons boon and his crew of five embraces unexpectedly manages to get one vote each via Unexpected Coalition.

Fredrik the Weak, who's in the claws of the enemy, decides to vote against with his unexpected extra vote and so the coalition fails.

Can Axel von Anders play Scalpel Tongue and punish the weakling for going against the clan, forcing him to abstain, so that his embraces gets the extra votes back?

Shorter: Frederik the weak is voting against a referendum. Can you use Scalpel Tongue to make him abstain? Yes, that's what the card is for.

Also, the votes don't pop in and out of existence during the voting process. They all have a vote, which is then ignored during tallying if the criteria are met. But for example:

- Axel (Meth A) plays Unexpected Coalition
- Axel (Meth A) votes in favour
- Frederik (Meth B) votes against. Note that Axel still has a vote, and is still voting in favour.
- Arika (Meth C) plays Kindred Coercion, and makes Axel vote against.

Now during tallying, Axel and Frederik's votes are the same way (and there are no other !Brujah), so both votes are counted. Which is handy for, say, the Elder Kindred Network that's been thrown down at some point in the process.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Now, if Axel has condemnation: mute, does he count as abstaining? Probably not really, but its hard to figure out what voting in opposition of having negative votes could be.....

A vampire with negative votes tracks the negativeness for the purposes of stacking extra votes on top - say, playing an Awe later. But when they come to cast the votes, if the total is negative, they have no votes to cast.

A vampire casting no votes is abtaining - any time you don't vote in favour or against a referendum, you're abstaining, whether that's because you choose not to (e.g. Arika with her four votes abstains, to avoid some nasty effect) or you have no votes. Also: except where an effect forces you to abstain, abstaining isn't a positive choice. So when I say "Arika is abstaining", that simply means she hasn't cast her votes one way or the other - yet. I could change my mind, before voting ends.

And if a vampire is abstaining, you can't vote in agreement with them or in opposition to them. Precedent here is Madrigal:

[LSJ 20020123]

LSJ wrote:

> > > The MEL version carries the two votes from the mel version. The
> > > vampire will *always* be voting in agreement with herself.
> >
> > Unless she is forced to abstain (Pulling Strings).
>
> Hmmm... interesting point. If she's forced to abstain, can *anyone* be
> voting in agreement with her? Or against? That would pretty much

No.

> nullify the entire card, as far as I can tell...

It would.

Thank you all for answering!