file A few (newb) rules clarification

24 Jun 2014 11:03 #63303 by Timo

2. In a round, can we play the same card twice (like two Mighty Grapple) to, for example, force to continue combat. If not, can we play the same card twice in the same combat, on two different rounds?


As others have said, yes, you can (assuming your opponent presses to end).

But, when it comes to pressing with Mighty Grapple... in general, don't. Or at least, don't make a big thing of it. Maybe a couple in a deck, but lots, not usually.

In 95% of circumstances, press-based combat is bad. There are a couple of exceptions for weenie Fortitude with Trap, and occasionally weenie Animalism with Aid from Bats. Thaumaturgy looks like it should be good to go to second round, but that rarely works out well. Well Aimed Car looks nice, but is rarely worth it - Disarming them on the first round is usually much more solid.

But if you're using Potence, it's almost never worth it. If you're doing serious combat, Potence's main aim is usually to hit your opponent hard enough on the first round that either:

- your opponent goes to torpor from enough damage, or
- you play Disarm

Potence/Celerity is good for this - Torn Signpost + Immortal Grapple + Blur + Disarm (+ Taste of Vitae) is a very solid basic combo. Increased Strength has some use. Target cards (Target Vitals, Target Head) can be handy if you don't have additional strikes, to pile on the damage. Going to a second round typically means that your opponent can hit you again, which isn't that great for you. Being able to do it once or twice in a game so that your deck is unpredictable might well be decent, but it's not generally something to plan for in large numbers.


If you're not doing serious combat, wasting cards on going to a second round is a bit annoying. You might, for example, have a lot of Thrown Gates in a deck as a 'flung junk' defensive strategy - built-in maneuver, hurl the gate at someone, add in a few Targets or Increased Strength to taste. And that's maybe a small sideline in a deck, and pressing is probably going to be a waste.


On the contrary !

Press is nearly mandatory for potence.

Or else, 1 fortitude card will ruin your fight and you will have played all these cards for nothing.

BUT, mighty grapple is still not the way to go for presses.

Immortal grapple or Thrown Sewer Lids at :POT: are a way more sexy way to have presses. And maybe 2 to 3 mighty grapple for surprising Owain Evans and his indomitability and crush him in second round.

I would summarize it like that : "you don't want to go to second round but you should build your deck with the possibility that you could need a second round."
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24 Jun 2014 11:11 #63304 by Jeff Kuta

In 95% of circumstances, press-based combat is bad. There are a couple of exceptions for weenie Fortitude with Trap, and occasionally weenie Animalism with Aid from Bats. Thaumaturgy looks like it should be good to go to second round, but that rarely works out well. Well Aimed Car looks nice, but is rarely worth it - Disarming them on the first round is usually much more solid.


At the risk of getting this further sidetracked from rules...

Press-based combat is generally not something to design around, but it is something that can be very useful as a side-effect or option given by many cards. Aid from Bats + Carrion Crows was mentioned. But also consider:

.44 Magnum + Flash + Psyche! (Flash long, shoot gun, press Flash, long with inherent gun maneuver, shoot again, Psyche! Repeat)

"Grinder" decks with Dominate bleed and Fortitude combat featuring Hidden Strength, Indomitability, Rolling with the Punches, Weighted Walking Sticks and Target Vitals.

Plus there are two commonly seen allies with an inherent dodge: Carlton van Wyk and Mylan Horseed (Goblin). Press combat frequently manages to burn them.

When you are anvil, be patient; when a hammer, strike.
:CEL::DOM::OBF::POT::QUI:
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24 Jun 2014 17:25 #63320 by ReverendRevolver
Grapple presses are important to grapple combat, and combat is normally one of 3 flavors if its good:

Guns, grapple, animalism. Guns want to just Psyche at CEL so they waste less cards and get a new manuever from 44. The other 2 press. Fortitude does better against guns amd grapple than animalism, because 2 crows and one bats is not all from strikes, like RwtP stops, altbough armor of vitality is useful because of Ani combat.

Basically, grapple and guns trumps combats weakness, SCE. animalism has deep song, and does bats, crows, and DotB damage, and has canine horde, so it trumps guns often. Guns smokes animalism if they dont get canine horde or DotB, and guns smokes grapple if they can outmanuever grapple. Grapple is great against animalism and guns if they can get to close range pre strike, which is great with slam. Animalism only manuevers once normally, but guns has more, so Lids are more practical than slam against guns. If you lid a gun guy, press to continue, they have one less manuever than previously, so they may be catchable.

Thats the basics of combat. Theres also stickmen and agg stuff you see some, but its less dedicated, and all of these deal with those without much trouble.

Card flow is key in combat, because 30+ cards are dedicated to things other than blocking or burning pool, so theres that. But all that belongs in strategy.

Back to rules, you can generate as many presses as you need to either end or continue, as long as the opponent is doing the opposite. You can have as many optional presses as you want, but they last the round so use them first. If you have grapple, hidden strengthx2, indomitability, and rushes with harass, they are all things you can use that first round. Trap is not optional, but you can drop as many as you want and they give one mandatory press to continue each, but do not count as your minion pressing, trap presses regardless.

And finally, things like pursuit can be used as many times as it takes to arrive at desired range, and again for an additional strike. You can only get additional strikes from one source a round though, unless granted a way around that by cars text.
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25 Jun 2014 10:29 #63330 by jamesatzephyr

I would summarize it like that : "you don't want to go to second round but you should build your deck with the possibility that you could need a second round."


Sorry, what I was trying (inelegantly) to say is that you generally don't want to be making a thing out of having presses, and Mighty Grapple is mostly only a card that you include when you specifically want presses. Like, no-one's going to say don't play Immortal Grapple, which you mostly include for anti-S:CE/anti-dodge, but has an incidental press which might be useful in some circumstances. Ditto, no-one is going to say don't include Flash, which you're probably playing for the maneuver. And Shadow Boxing is quite a versatile card (maneuver/press/action continues) that also includes a press.

But you very rarely see someone play, say, Nimble Feet (cel Press/Additional, turns up in a small number of TWDA decks), since they'd probably much rather play Pursuit (cel Maneuver/Additional, turns up in quite a lot of TWDA decks) - the press at inferior is a poor choice.
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26 Jun 2014 00:46 #63344 by Prudent_Audacity
Wow, thanks guys. It is sincerely appreciated.

Like Lönkka suggested, we play with the rulebook on this site opened on a laptop near-by. The CTRL-F function works great with it.

Immortal grapple was a bad example, I only had that one in mind. But I understand that we can play the same Press card twice on the same round if nothing states otherwise. One of us was sure that we could only play the same card once, but wasn't sure if it was strike, round or combat. Thanks for your help, we were searching for a rule that was not there.

When in doubt, 90% of questions can be answered by reading the card aloud, and sometimes checking those annoying, tiny, paper rulebooks.


I play with guys that would have been excellent lawyers, but have Irish blood. Reading the card aloud is what gets us usually started!

Potence/Celerity is good for this - Torn Signpost + Immortal Grapple + Blur + Disarm (+ Taste of Vitae) is a very solid basic combo. Increased Strength has some use. Target cards (Target Vitals, Target Head) can be handy if you don't have additional strikes, to pile on the damage. Going to a second round typically means that your opponent can hit you again, which isn't that great for you. Being able to do it once or twice in a game so that your deck is unpredictable might well be decent, but it's not generally something to plan for in large numbers.


Thanks! My comments were mostly to resolve a problem we had in a game last weekend, but I am currently exploring combat-based decks (and what to do against them) and your insights and discussion are very appreciated!

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26 Jun 2014 06:09 #63354 by Lönkka

Reading the card aloud is what gets us usually started!


Please note that some old cards have been revised.
So sometimes it would be a good idea to chekc the current cardtexts from, say, here or from secretlibrary.info

Also at least skimming through General Rulings and Card Rulings from the sidebar on the left is quite helpful.


All in all, don't forget in the heat of the game that the main idea is to have fun with your mates!

Finnish :POT: Politics!

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