Double Velvet Tongue - "cannot cast votes or ballots"

Pascal wrote:

I must admit I am open to suggestions regarding this one. I'd rather have "cast votes remain cast".

To add to the matter (from the point of view of "Hey, if we're thinking about this, let's think about it all at once" rather than trying to rebut anyone specifically):

Methuselah A calls a referendum. Let's say something innocuous like Praxis Seizure: Seattle.
Methuselah B casts some votes against - either from vampires or from non-vampires (e.g. tapping Ventrue HQ, burning the edge,).
Methuselah A plays Business Pressure.
Methuselah B self-ousts by spending pool on the Business Pressure (and the self oust is legal).
Methuselah B is ousted immediately. [LSJ 20060211]

What (if anything) happens to Methuselah B's votes, from minions and non-minion sources?



Similar situation:

Meth A calls a vote.
Several Methuselahs (A, B, C, D, E) cast a vote using Vox Senis controlled by Methuselah B. Relevant card text: "Put this card in play. Each Methuselah gets an additional vote during each referendum."
Methuselah A plays Business Pressure.
Methuselah B - who controls the Vox Senis - self-ousts.

What, if anything, happens to the votes already cast by Methuselahs using the Vox Senis?

Same Vox Senis scenario. Methuselah D hasn't got involved in the referendum at the point Methuelah A plays Business Pressure and Methuselah B self-ousts. When was Methuselah D granted the additional vote? Is it still there, lingering on him as an optional vote to be cast, even though Vox Senis is no longer in play? Is it something that the Methuselah 'gets' only when that Methuselah casts it, and now can't be used?

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Similar situation:

Meth A calls a vote.
Several Methuselahs (A, B, C, D, E) cast a vote using Vox Senis controlled by Methuselah B. Relevant card text: "Put this card in play. Each Methuselah gets an additional vote during each referendum."
Methuselah A plays Business Pressure.
Methuselah B - who controls the Vox Senis - self-ousts.

What, if anything, happens to the votes already cast by Methuselahs using the Vox Senis?

Same Vox Senis scenario. Methuselah D hasn't got involved in the referendum at the point Methuelah A plays Business Pressure and Methuselah B self-ousts. When was Methuselah D granted the additional vote? Is it still there, lingering on him as an optional vote to be cast, even though Vox Senis is no longer in play? Is it something that the Methuselah 'gets' only when that Methuselah casts it, and now can't be used?

In this situation, I think it is similar to modifying the number of vote a vampire have :

mehusalah cast "their votes" which are at this point 1 due to Vox Senis and then Vox Senis is not there anymore so the number of vote a meth has is now 0.

Timo wrote:

In this situation, I think it is similar to modifying the number of vote a vampire have :

mehusalah cast "their votes" which are at this point 1 due to Vox Senis and then Vox Senis is not there anymore so the number of vote a meth has is now 0.

That would be my hunch too(*), but that would seem to go against Pascal's understandable preference for "cast votes stay cast". If removing the source of the vote from play reduces votes, why wouldn't removing the source of avvote from the ready region (vampire goes to torpor) do the same?



(*) By which I mostly mean "That's probably how I would rule in a tournament situation where I didn't have the answer, and someone was unhelpful enough to play awful cards in horrifying combinations(**)."

(**) SWUETPACIHC used to be Pascal's speciality on rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad, though, so it's all his fault.

PB actually said "cast votes stay cast" BUT, he actually said that the quantity of votes can be modified wih card like Dread Gaze/Bewitching Oration.

So in the case above, a Meth would have cast his/her votes and then, the total worth of his/her votes would be reduced...

Timo wrote:

PB actually said "cast votes stay cast" BUT, he actually said that the quantity of votes can be modified wih card like Dread Gaze/Bewitching Oration.

So in the case above, a Meth would have cast his/her votes and then, the total worth of his/her votes would be reduced...

So why would the source of votes leaving the ready region matter in one case (Vox Senis burning/leaving the game) but not the other (torporized vampire)? Why does the former reduce the number of votes you've cast, but not the latter? Would it differ if the vampire was burned instead of/as well as torporized? For example, use Julius in the torporization case with a Revelation of the Sire (Toreador) and a PS: Somewhere. Do his votes continue to be cast? If so, why do they persist when not in the game but Vox Senis doesn't?


If a Brujah antitribu leaves the game via a Business Pressure self-oust, what happens to Unexpected Coalition? (Assume, obviously, that said !Brujah voted in opposition to the !Brujah who played it.) Are the votes or ballots from the no-longer-thre-vampire still being cast, and what do they do to counting the extra votes from Unexpected Coalition? Card text: "Each ready Brujah antitribu gets an additional vote this referendum. When tallying results, if any Brujah antitribu cast any votes or ballots in opposition to this Brujah antitribu's votes or ballots (or if this Brujah antitribu abstains), none of the additional votes from this card are counted." Does it matter if the !Brujah who played it is the one who leaves the game? Assuming the dead vampire isn't treated as abstaining, can you vote in opposition to a vampire who is no longer in play?

Actually, I don't think PB stated that the votes of a vampire in torpor counted toward the referendum. He even asked us to give him advice on the matter ^^.

By the way, I must say that your !Brujah case is a masterpiece of SWUETPACIHC !