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file Andre LeRoux + spying mission

16 Jun 2015 08:39 - 16 Jun 2015 08:40 #71756 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Andre LeRoux + spying mission

In regards to the timing. How does bleed reduction from the prey fit in?
Can the predator claim that he had "priority" and use the special first?
Because andre will wait for a bounce before applying either spying mission or/and the power.

Keep in mind that André's special can be triggered only when the bleed would be succesful. This means that it happens after the bleed is reduced or redirected (otherwise, we don't know yet if it's successful or not).

If Andre bleeds for 2.
I do not block.
I wake and reduce by two (telepathic counter)
Can the predator cause a fuss about how he had priority?

No, because at the time you play TC, the bleed isn't successful yet. For instance, it can be reduced :)

Also when you use Andre's special on himself, he get's +2 bleed that turn.
So andre tries to bleed for 1, doesnt get blocked, he uses the special, it's now a bleed of 2 (1-1+2), that bleed get's bounced and andre uses spying mission.

It can't be bounced when it would be successful. It's too late.

Andre bleeds for 1.
No block bounce reduce.
Special on himself.
The bleed gets -1 but andre has now a bleed of 3, therefore it's still a succesful bleed of 2.
That means he can play spying mission as well, after the special.

Yes, if he has obfuscate.
Note that it doesn't work the other way round as it was explained earlier, because SM makes the bleed unsuccesful instead.
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Last edit: 16 Jun 2015 08:40 by Ankha.
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22 Jun 2015 09:37 #71813 by Pascal Bertrand
Replied by Pascal Bertrand on topic Re: Andre LeRoux + spying mission

Ok, I'll put it another way: stop using the CRR the way you do. It's in no mean supposed to be exhaustive as you'd like it to be. It shouldn't even be called "Complete Rule Reference", rather "Game sequencing summary". It describes in a detailed but not exhaustive way how the game runs, phase by phase.

I'll rename the page "Detailed Play Summary" to avoid complications.
It cannot withold all the rulings of all the combinations of cards (and therefore cannot be complete and short).
Specific questions can be asked (and will be answered). The Detailed Play Summary gives a more precise view of when to play cards, and of the ordering of the different steps of the game.
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22 Jun 2015 13:36 #71816 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Re: Andre LeRoux + spying mission

At some point, understanding rules has a prerequisite that can't be written in the book: you must be logical and understand English.


A lot of players don't have that prerequisite then, because a lot of players don't really understand the rules behind how cards interact. I think you need to realize this.

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23 Jun 2015 18:35 #71830 by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Re: Andre LeRoux + spying mission

a lot of players don't really understand the rules behind how cards interact. I think you need to realize this.

What would you suggest for a remedy (besides Ankha understanding this)?


At this point (20+ years) we hardly can start stupifying the rules so that even the thickest among us understand everything regarding the rules/how all card combos work...
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24 Jun 2015 00:53 #71834 by TwoRazorReign
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Re: Andre LeRoux + spying mission

a lot of players don't really understand the rules behind how cards interact. I think you need to realize this.

What would you suggest for a remedy (besides Ankha understanding this)?


At this point (20+ years) we hardly can start stupifying the rules so that even the thickest among us understand everything regarding the rules/how all card combos work...


My suggestion was to avoid the conditional mood on some cards because it causes confusion. “Only usable when a bleed would be successful” (conditional) is less clear than “play after blocks are declined, before the bleed is resolved” (imperative). And "when a vampire you control would successfully bleed (conditional), you may reduce" is less clear than "when a vampire you control successfully bleeds (indicative), before resolution, you may reduce..." It's about clarity, not stupification.

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24 Jun 2015 11:55 - 24 Jun 2015 11:55 #71836 by jamesatzephyr
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Re: Andre LeRoux + spying mission

My suggestion was to avoid the conditional mood on some cards because it causes confusion. “Only usable when a bleed would be successful” (conditional) is less clear than “play after blocks are declined, before the bleed is resolved” (imperative). And "when a vampire you control would successfully bleed (conditional), you may reduce" is less clear than "when a vampire you control successfully bleeds (indicative), before resolution, you may reduce..."


The timings are quite different.

Telepathic Counter, for example, can be played after blocks are declined and before the bleed is resolved. (It can also be played much earlier in the action too, but that's not relevant here.) However, under the current setup, playing Spying Mission comes after the possibility for Telepathic Counter to be played . And Andre LeRoux's ability is used at the same time as Spying Mission can be used .

But now you've given them the same timing.


It's about clarity, not stupification.


Apparently, it's about changing how cards work.
Last edit: 24 Jun 2015 11:55 by jamesatzephyr.

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