file Hide the Heart Timing Questions

11 Aug 2015 12:37 - 11 Aug 2015 13:23 #72462 by drnlmza
From previous queries on Hide the Heart we have

> In the "as the action is declared" window?
No.

> Before block attempts are declared?
Yes.

> After block attempts are declared?
Yes.

> After a block is successful, but before combat begins (ie, the Change
> of Target/Obedience window)?
Resolution, no.

> During a referendum?

Resolution, no.

> My prey declares an attempt to bleed his prey. May I play Hide the
> Heart before my grandprey chooses whether or not to attempt to block?
> (I'm not sure how the impulse works in that situation.)

No.
Impulse works as given in "sequencing" [1.6.1.5]


However, that final "No - Sequencing" answer appears to contradict rulings on the timing of Car Bomb, such as this one

> 1. Does car bomb have it's own timing window before block attempts?
> Can a crosstable player demand
> to play Car bomb before the acting minion's (on an undirected action)
> prey attempts to block or is the prey's minions allowed to block before
> the car bomb is played?
Of course. There is a "before blocks are amde" opportunity before blocks can be made.


Thus, 2 questions:

a) Which is correct? If the later Hide the Heart statement is correct, then it seems to be virtually impossible to play Car Bomb cross table.

b) Given the answers about Hide the Heart, when does the change from "resolving block attempts" to the "action resolution" window happen?

Consider the following setup

Player A (acting)
Player B (all minions tapped)
Player C (playing Hide the Heart)
Player D


Player A attempts a default bleed.
Player B plays a Wake on a minion announces a block attempt. No-one cancels the wake.
Impulse returns to Player A, who passes on playing further cards, and says something along the lines of "You successfully block"

Is this enough for the action to be consideresd at resolution? Or is there still an opportunity for other people to play cards? Can player C still play inf HtH here so their crosstable ally can choose to have the action end and avoid the combat?

Reaction
Requires a ready anarch.
Only usable before any block attempts are made. Tap this reacting minion. If the acting minion has a vehicle, the action ends (unsuccessfully), the vehicle is burned, and the acting minion takes 2 damage (not preventable). Otherwise, the action gets -1 stealth.

Reaction
:aus: Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
:val: The action ends (unsuccessfully). The acting minion may burn 1 blood to cancel this card as it is played. Only one Hide the Heart may be played at :val: each action.
:VAL: Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed against any Methuselah by 2.



Edited to add relevant card texts:

--
National Coordinator
South Africa
Last edit: 11 Aug 2015 13:23 by drnlmza.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
20 Aug 2015 17:14 #72626 by Pascal Bertrand

From previous queries on Hide the Heart we have

> In the "as the action is declared" window?
No.

> Before block attempts are declared?
Yes.

> After block attempts are declared?
Yes.

> After a block is successful, but before combat begins (ie, the Change
> of Target/Obedience window)?
Resolution, no.

> During a referendum?

Resolution, no.

> My prey declares an attempt to bleed his prey. May I play Hide the
> Heart before my grandprey chooses whether or not to attempt to block?
> (I'm not sure how the impulse works in that situation.)

No.
Impulse works as given in "sequencing" [1.6.1.5]


However, that final "No - Sequencing" answer appears to contradict rulings on the timing of Car Bomb, such as this one

> 1. Does car bomb have it's own timing window before block attempts?
> Can a crosstable player demand
> to play Car bomb before the acting minion's (on an undirected action)
> prey attempts to block or is the prey's minions allowed to block before
> the car bomb is played?
Of course. There is a "before blocks are amde" opportunity before blocks can be made.

This ruling was given back in 2003, and I'm not sure LSJ had a clear idea of what he wanted for sequencing back then.
Car Bomb should be read (and will be rewritten) as something in the lines of "Only usable as the action is declered".

Thus, 2 questions:

a) Which is correct? If the later Hide the Heart statement is correct, then it seems to be virtually impossible to play Car Bomb cross table.

Correct. Except that Car Bomb gets played "as the action is announced" (this is the only step before blocks can get decared).

b) Given the answers about Hide the Heart, when does the change from "resolving block attempts" to the "action resolution" window happen?

When everyone passed on using the impulse.

Consider the following setup

Player A (acting)
Player B (all minions tapped)
Player C (playing Hide the Heart)
Player D


Player A attempts a default bleed.
Player B plays a Wake on a minion announces a block attempt. No-one cancels the wake.
Impulse returns to Player A, who passes on playing further cards, and says something along the lines of "You successfully block"

Well, A should say "I decline playing or using other effects.". The impulse (after A declined playing cards) passes to B (who is attempting to block, with enough intercept), and then to C, and then to D.
Note that C, here, gets the opportunity of playing Hide the Heart. D might get a chance of using that shiny Monastery of Shadows to give A's vampire +1 stealth (at which point A would get the impulse back).
If all pass, then since A's stealth isn't above B's intercept, the action is blocked (Change of Target window), and they enter combat.

Is this enough for the action to be consideresd at resolution? Or is there still an opportunity for other people to play cards? Can player C still play inf HtH here so their crosstable ally can choose to have the action end and avoid the combat?

See above for the propper way to follow the sequencing rule - but, yes, C gets a window to play Hide the Heart.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
24 Aug 2015 05:48 #72673 by hodgestar
Thanks Pascal.

One further question. In the example, if B were to pass instead of playing the Wake, is that equivalent to B declining to block? Or is declining to block something B would have to announce explicitly?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
24 Aug 2015 06:07 #72674 by jamesatzephyr

One further question. In the example, if B were to pass instead of playing the Wake, is that equivalent to B declining to block? Or is declining to block something B would have to announce explicitly?


A lot of passing and declining is very often implicit, not super explicit - the Methuselah who picks up and tosses their pool into the blood bank has probably just communicated "I'm not blocking or bouncing" to everyone. And then obviously, you might rewind if someone else says "Wait, I want to play Major Boon." Or I might play Govern the Unaligned and the fact that no-one is trying to get my attention is implicitly taken as a declaration from the table of "No, we're not cancelling that card."


There are many rulings about this over time, but the essence is: what has been understood by players? If in doubt, try to be helpful and clear - but don't turn that into cumbersomely requiring every player on the table to decline to play Nosferatu Putrescence in every combat phase.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
24 Aug 2015 14:45 #72683 by hodgestar
Sorry, I should perhaps have been clearer. My question is not about the etiquette, but about whether B has the option to pass the impulse to allow C to play HtH without B giving up the option of blocking later. Personally I would also like to understand clearly how this works in case I need to make obscure rulings on the spot in future. :)

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.091 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum