Toreador Grand Ball/Mask of 1000 Faces
23 Sep 2015 19:35 #73292
by Kushiel
Toreador Grand Ball/Mask of 1000 Faces was created by Kushiel
If a vampire is unblockable due to a Toreador Grand Ball in play, may a different vampire play Mask of 1000 Faces to take over the action once everyone has declared no blocks?
I think the answer is no, but I'm checking here to see what the current ruling is - searching showed me multiple, conflicting rulings, and the links on the Card Rulings page for Mask lead to a generic Google Groups page, not actual newsgroup posts.
I think the answer is no, but I'm checking here to see what the current ruling is - searching showed me multiple, conflicting rulings, and the links on the Card Rulings page for Mask lead to a generic Google Groups page, not actual newsgroup posts.
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24 Sep 2015 05:49 #73298
by Ankha
There is no difference between:
- target Methuselah declines to block because the action is unblockable
- target Methuselah declines to block because he doesn't want to block
Then you can play Mo1KF after blocks have been declined.
groups.google.com/forum/?hl=fr#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/wltIoG3qv_I/hFvOS1M-Eb8J
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Toreador Grand Ball/Mask of 1000 Faces
Yes.If a vampire is unblockable due to a Toreador Grand Ball in play, may a different vampire play Mask of 1000 Faces to take over the action once everyone has declared no blocks?
There is no difference between:
- target Methuselah declines to block because the action is unblockable
- target Methuselah declines to block because he doesn't want to block
Then you can play Mo1KF after blocks have been declined.
groups.google.com/forum/?hl=fr#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/wltIoG3qv_I/hFvOS1M-Eb8J
Could you list the conflicting rulings so that they can be corrected (if needed)? I'm not aware of them.I'm checking here to see what the current ruling is - searching showed me multiple, conflicting rulings, and the links on the Card Rulings page for Mask lead to a generic Google Groups page, not actual newsgroup posts.
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24 Sep 2015 06:51 - 24 Sep 2015 06:51 #73303
by Ke.
Isn't the Grand Ball covered by the "or other effects" part of this ruling:
"Mask cannot be used to mask an action if the Masking vampire is not capable of taking that action, nor if any action modifiers, reactions, or other effects (including inherent stealth) have been played on this action that could not have been played/used if the Masking vampire were the acting minion. (Not counting blood that has already been spent.)"
Nakhthorheb's special also comes to mind as something I thought wasn't legal. ie. Masking after minions with corruption counters have declined to block with a minion other than Nakhthorheb.
Replied by Ke. on topic Re: Toreador Grand Ball/Mask of 1000 Faces
Could you list the conflicting rulings so that they can be corrected (if needed)? I'm not aware of them.
Isn't the Grand Ball covered by the "or other effects" part of this ruling:
"Mask cannot be used to mask an action if the Masking vampire is not capable of taking that action, nor if any action modifiers, reactions, or other effects (including inherent stealth) have been played on this action that could not have been played/used if the Masking vampire were the acting minion. (Not counting blood that has already been spent.)"
Nakhthorheb's special also comes to mind as something I thought wasn't legal. ie. Masking after minions with corruption counters have declined to block with a minion other than Nakhthorheb.
Last edit: 24 Sep 2015 06:51 by Ke..
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24 Sep 2015 07:14 #73304
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Toreador Grand Ball/Mask of 1000 Faces
Hmpf.
There's been a few reversals after that so I'm not sure my first answer is still right.
There's been a few reversals after that so I'm not sure my first answer is still right.
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24 Sep 2015 09:20 #73306
by Pascal Bertrand
Replied by Pascal Bertrand on topic Re: Toreador Grand Ball/Mask of 1000 Faces
You can mask an action that was taken by someone with a TGB - and you can do this before or after blocks were announced/declided, as you want.
The cause, as Vincent said, is that there is no "Since I cannot declare block attempts" effect in V:tES.
Similary, you can Mask Nakhthorheb after blocks were declined.
The rest of the rulings over Mask are extremely tricky (and the superior text made me realise I might have to reverse a totally unrelated ruling).
The cause, as Vincent said, is that there is no "Since I cannot declare block attempts" effect in V:tES.
Similary, you can Mask Nakhthorheb after blocks were declined.
The rest of the rulings over Mask are extremely tricky (and the superior text made me realise I might have to reverse a totally unrelated ruling).
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24 Sep 2015 11:16 #73309
by TwoRazorReign
I'm sure there are sound reasons for ruling TGB and Mask this way, but, as has been pointed out, TGB is a "other effect" that the first vampire used that "could not have been used" by the second vampire. This ruling is problematic because it contradicts the card text.
Replied by TwoRazorReign on topic Re: Toreador Grand Ball/Mask of 1000 Faces
You can mask an action that was taken by someone with a TGB - and you can do this before or after blocks were announced/declided, as you want.
The cause, as Vincent said, is that there is no "Since I cannot declare block attempts" effect in V:tES.
Similary, you can Mask Nakhthorheb after blocks were declined.
The rest of the rulings over Mask are extremely tricky (and the superior text made me realise I might have to reverse a totally unrelated ruling).
I'm sure there are sound reasons for ruling TGB and Mask this way, but, as has been pointed out, TGB is a "other effect" that the first vampire used that "could not have been used" by the second vampire. This ruling is problematic because it contradicts the card text.
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