John Paleologus' ability
06 Dec 2015 15:55 #74590
by Bloodartist
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
John Paleologus' ability was created by Bloodartist
Can
John Paleologus
use his ability multiple times during a single untap phase? It isn't strictly forbidden by the card text, but it feels somewhat strong if not restricted.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
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06 Dec 2015 16:24 #74591
by jamesatzephyr
It is forbidden.
Rulebook - here's an archived link to the rulebook while the site is being rebuilt:
So anything that's phrased "during some phase or combat or something", etc. is restricted to once in the particular phase.
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic John Paleologus' ability
Can John Paleologus use his ability multiple times during a single untap phase? It isn't strictly forbidden by the card text, but it feels somewhat strong if not restricted.
It is forbidden.
During your untap phase, if John is ready, he may burn 2 blood to cause your prey to burn 1 pool.
Rulebook - here's an archived link to the rulebook while the site is being rebuilt:
“During X, do Y”: The “during X do Y” template is used in several cards. When this template is used, only one Y can be done per X with this card. For instance, you may move blood from your vampire to your pool with Vessel only once per untap phase.
So anything that's phrased "during some phase or combat or something", etc. is restricted to once in the particular phase.
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06 Dec 2015 18:09 - 06 Dec 2015 18:13 #74592
by Bloodartist
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Replied by Bloodartist on topic John Paleologus' ability
Thank you for response. In my opinion, if VTES ever returns to print in one form or another, this is something that should be explained more clearly in the card text. It doesn't take many words.
The reason why I think its important to have clear card text, is because of the golden rule: "1.4. Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence." So if theres any ambiguity between cards and rules, players would be anxious to use the actual card text.
Having clear card text will save new players a lot of confusion. Especially when learning the game offline, where access to comprehensive rules may be difficult.
The reason why I think its important to have clear card text, is because of the golden rule: "1.4. Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence." So if theres any ambiguity between cards and rules, players would be anxious to use the actual card text.
Having clear card text will save new players a lot of confusion. Especially when learning the game offline, where access to comprehensive rules may be difficult.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Last edit: 06 Dec 2015 18:13 by Bloodartist.
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07 Dec 2015 13:03 #74594
by Ankha
I don't understand how people are supposed to learn a game without reading the rules. It's not in a comprehensive appendix, it's in the rulebook.
Also, the golden rule isn't implied here. It would be if the card stated : "During.... as many times as you like"
"Once each of your untap phase, if John is ready, he may burn 2 blood to cause your prey to burn 1 pool."
That works great. Similarily, Anarch Revolt would be reworded to:
"Put this card in play. A Methuselah who does not control a ready anarch burns 1 pool once each of his or her untap phase. Any vampire can call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action."
Then people start thinking that two Anarch Revolts are not cumulative.
Whatever wording you use, if people don't read the rules, they will likely dont know how to properly play the game.
Replied by Ankha on topic John Paleologus' ability
The reason why I think its important to have clear card text, is because of the golden rule: "1.4. Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence." So if theres any ambiguity between cards and rules, players would be anxious to use the actual card text.
Having clear card text will save new players a lot of confusion. Especially when learning the game offline, where access to comprehensive rules may be difficult.
I don't understand how people are supposed to learn a game without reading the rules. It's not in a comprehensive appendix, it's in the rulebook.
Also, the golden rule isn't implied here. It would be if the card stated : "During.... as many times as you like"
Let's say we don't use the "During X do Y" pattern described in the rulebook, give a try:this is something that should be explained more clearly in the card text. It doesn't take many words.
"Once each of your untap phase, if John is ready, he may burn 2 blood to cause your prey to burn 1 pool."
That works great. Similarily, Anarch Revolt would be reworded to:
"Put this card in play. A Methuselah who does not control a ready anarch burns 1 pool once each of his or her untap phase. Any vampire can call a referendum to burn this card as a +1 stealth political action."
Then people start thinking that two Anarch Revolts are not cumulative.
Whatever wording you use, if people don't read the rules, they will likely dont know how to properly play the game.
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07 Dec 2015 16:46 #74595
by Bloodartist
I am not implying people shouldn't read the rules. I am advocating removal of uncecessary sources of confusion by using simple, consistent card texts (in future publications that might or might not happen). All it would have taken in this case were words "once per turn". Or maybe "once during your untap phase".
However, while writing this response, I realized what the source of my confusion was originally. I didn't recognize the ability for the triggered ability what it was. My first thought was that its an activated ability that is only usable during untap phase. Problem being the word "during". And since VTES already makes the distinction in activated abilities that can be activated multiple times per turn, I sort of expected the same here. I don't see why John couldn't have been worded in same fashion as those vampires I linked.
Looking at the card database now, I can see how common the "during X, do Y" form is. Its also intuitive that triggered abilities trigger only once each time their condition is met. But "during something" sounds somewhat weird to me. It doesn't sound like a trigger, especially since you can arrange the order of things that happen during a phase differently?
Magic the gathering uses the wording "At the beginning of phase X, do Y". It feels a bit more intuitive to understand its a trigger, since beginning of a phase happens only once per turn and at a specific time.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Replied by Bloodartist on topic John Paleologus' ability
The most likely scenario which I suspect concerns most players of any collectible card game, is that someone taught you the game. In such circumstances it is in my opinion important that the card texts are intuititive, and the new player quickly grasps the concepts of gameplay looking at the cards only coupled with someone explaining how they work.I don't understand how people are supposed to learn a game without reading the rules. It's not in a comprehensive appendix, it's in the rulebook.
I am not implying people shouldn't read the rules. I am advocating removal of uncecessary sources of confusion by using simple, consistent card texts (in future publications that might or might not happen). All it would have taken in this case were words "once per turn". Or maybe "once during your untap phase".
However, while writing this response, I realized what the source of my confusion was originally. I didn't recognize the ability for the triggered ability what it was. My first thought was that its an activated ability that is only usable during untap phase. Problem being the word "during". And since VTES already makes the distinction in activated abilities that can be activated multiple times per turn, I sort of expected the same here. I don't see why John couldn't have been worded in same fashion as those vampires I linked.
Looking at the card database now, I can see how common the "during X, do Y" form is. Its also intuitive that triggered abilities trigger only once each time their condition is met. But "during something" sounds somewhat weird to me. It doesn't sound like a trigger, especially since you can arrange the order of things that happen during a phase differently?
Magic the gathering uses the wording "At the beginning of phase X, do Y". It feels a bit more intuitive to understand its a trigger, since beginning of a phase happens only once per turn and at a specific time.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
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10 Dec 2015 07:26 #74613
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic John Paleologus' ability
Apparently, you are a Magic player. I'm not sure that non-Magic player find the concepts of "triggered" or "activated" abilities intuitive.
You quote a Magic template that you find intuitive: "At the beginning of phase X, do Y". Let's see it from a Magic player's perspective: as a player who hasn't played Magic for years, I really don't know what happens if more than one of these effects exist. Who order them? Do they have each their own stack? Who is the first player that could respond?
I'm sure it's written somewhere in the rules, and I wouldn't assume that the intuitive way for me is correct. So I'd better read the rules to figure out what's happening in that case.
Back to VTES: "Once each X do Y" ... is equivalent to "During X do Y", but as I said, having two identical effects each stating "once" could lead to confusion. It works well for vampires that are unique, but for cumulative cards such as Anarch Revolt, it's not necessarily very intuitive neither.
You quote a Magic template that you find intuitive: "At the beginning of phase X, do Y". Let's see it from a Magic player's perspective: as a player who hasn't played Magic for years, I really don't know what happens if more than one of these effects exist. Who order them? Do they have each their own stack? Who is the first player that could respond?
I'm sure it's written somewhere in the rules, and I wouldn't assume that the intuitive way for me is correct. So I'd better read the rules to figure out what's happening in that case.
Back to VTES: "Once each X do Y" ... is equivalent to "During X do Y", but as I said, having two identical effects each stating "once" could lead to confusion. It works well for vampires that are unique, but for cumulative cards such as Anarch Revolt, it's not necessarily very intuitive neither.
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