file Thing and New Player Confusion

06 Jun 2016 23:03 #77124 by brettscho
Hello all - I was playing a game with a relatively new player recently (she's played ~15-20 games at this point, so new-ish is likely a better descriptor), and when she ran into Thing, she was very confused. Let's take a look at the card:

Thing
+1 stealth action.
Add 2 blood to a Gangrel in your uncontrolled region.


What was unclear to this player is where the blood that gets added to your uncontrolled Gangrel comes from. She knew that it couldn't be from the blood bank (this is literally what she told me) because those cards all say "from the blood bank." Scouting Mission, Enchant Kindred, Govern the Unaligned, and many more cards use this phrasing.

Enchant Kindred
[ pre ] (D) Bleed with +1 bleed.
[ PRE ] +1 stealth action. Move 2 blood from the blood bank to a younger vampire in your uncontrolled region.


She tried to figure out where the blood comes from and concluded that it must come from the vampire playing the card. Once she found out that the blood was supposed to come from the blood bank, she was at least marginally confused because Thing didn't follow the wording precedent set by other cards that she was familiar with.

So I guess I'm trying to ask if there was a reason that this card doesn't follow the typical wording. Was the wording altered on purpose? Is the difference in wording meaningful? Am I actually wrong and the blood does come from the vampire playing the action? And if none of those things apply then can we update the text on the card so that it clearly explains where the blood comes from? Thanks!

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07 Jun 2016 01:07 #77129 by Boris The Blade
One can hardly think of clearer and simpler wording than Thing. It is the old template that is needlessly complicated. The whole notion of blood bank has no place in the rules, it is only there to say that players should bring more than 30 tokens with them.

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07 Jun 2016 06:36 - 07 Jun 2016 23:57 #77130 by Maddog
It is confusing wording for a new player, and possibly for returning players.
No harm in making the wording consistent with other similar card effects
(see changed text below)

:gang:
]Thing
+1 stealth action.
Move 2 blood from the blood bank to a to a Gangrel in your uncontrolled region.

I much prefer the old template (which I edited original wording above to reflect this) which imo is much clearer than the present "Thing" description.

I'm also very fond of the phrase "Blood Bank". Due to it being a term players in my meta have been using from the 90s and still use today. I does have a place in the rules.
Last edit: 07 Jun 2016 23:57 by Maddog.
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07 Jun 2016 13:47 #77132 by TwoRazorReign

So I guess I'm trying to ask if there was a reason that this card doesn't follow the typical wording. Was the wording altered on purpose? Is the difference in wording meaningful? Am I actually wrong and the blood does come from the vampire playing the action? And if none of those things apply then can we update the text on the card so that it clearly explains where the blood comes from? Thanks!


I'm not sure about answers to any of these questions, but the change certainly was deliberate. From "Output Changes" under "Rules":

R0089 : Add/give/move X blood from the blood bank

Use 'add X blood' (without 'from the blook bank').


I don't agree with some of the text change decisions that have been made, including this one. There doesn't seem to be any awareness that inconsistency in wording among cards causes confusion for new players. Changing existing templates is a wonderful long-term goal, but it is not a good idea to implement them now in the VEKN expansions.
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07 Jun 2016 16:43 - 07 Jun 2016 16:44 #77133 by Ankha
Some other cards don't mention the blood bank, eg. Powerbase: Barranquilla. All of them use "move" when blood is moved from the vampire.
There are plenty of variations in the pre-PDF wording that confuse players (eg. Veil of Darkness vs. Direct Intervention).
The goal is to use the cleanest wording in the new cards, and the same wording everywhere (in the new cards).
Older cardtexts are updated in a csv file we ought to publish.

That being said, I understand she was confused, but unfortunately she will be again, even with older cards.

If you have any suggestions or remarks such as this one, feel free to post, wording rules are still under construction.

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Last edit: 07 Jun 2016 16:44 by Ankha.

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08 Jun 2016 14:35 #77138 by Ankha
Other cards:

Name: Cleansing Ritual
[LoB:R]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Obeah/Dominate
+1 stealth action.
[dom] Add 1 blood to a vampire you control.
...

Name: Jungle Hunting Ground
[LoB:PA]
Cardtype: Master
Clan: Akunanse
Cost: 1 pool
Master: unique location. Hunting ground.
Tap during your untap phase to add 1 blood to this card if it has fewer than 3 blood. ...

Rejuvenate / Respire

Name: Transfusion
[LoB:C]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Thanatosis/Necromancy
[nec] Only usable after a successful action. Add 1 blood to a ready vampire.
...

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Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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