file Reform Body & Amaranth

08 Oct 2016 13:16 #78613 by smf4
Reform Body & Amaranth was created by smf4
Hello everybody.

I was asking myself if I can play Reform body in the following situation: I play amaranth in combat to diablerise an opposing vampire. Then, immediately a blood hunt is called and let's suppose I lose the referendum and the vote is for the burning of my vampire. Can I play Reform Body (as a combat card) to protect my vampire from being burned? When the referendum is called, am I not still in the combat phase? The rules mention that the blood hunt referendum is not an action and that action modifiers and reactions cannot be played, but I guess that since I am in combat I can still play Reform body as a combat card.
Am I right?

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08 Oct 2016 14:35 #78614 by GreyB
Replied by GreyB on topic Reform Body & Amaranth

Hello everybody.

I was asking myself if I can play Reform body in the following situation: I play amaranth in combat to diablerise an opposing vampire. Then, immediately a blood hunt is called and let's suppose I lose the referendum and the vote is for the burning of my vampire. Can I play Reform Body (as a combat card) to protect my vampire from being burned? When the referendum is called, am I not still in the combat phase? The rules mention that the blood hunt referendum is not an action and that action modifiers and reactions cannot be played, but I guess that since I am in combat I can still play Reform body as a combat card.
Am I right?


No, bloodhunt happens after combat if any.

:garg: :VIS: :POT: :FOR: :flight: -1 Strength

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08 Oct 2016 16:11 - 09 Oct 2016 07:29 #78615 by jamesatzephyr

. Can I play Reform Body (as a combat card) to protect my vampire from being burned?


No. Essentially, the Blood Hunt is treated as being not part of any action, so whatever the background to it is (a diablerie action, Amaranth, Veles Hunt, edit to add: I meant Abactor) is irrelevant.


[LSJ 20010809]

> So can you use Reform Body (as a combat card) after being burned in a Blood
> Hunt after an Amaranth?
No. See the body of the message James cited for an extended explanation
that should make that clear.


The extended explanation is in this post: [LSJ 20000426]

So the "problem" is not really the Castle, it's in the hard-to-pin
status (and timing) of the Blood Hunt referendum.

The Blood Hunt should be part of the "resolution" of a diablerie
(as specified in the Revised Rulebook, section 6.5.5).

The Blood Hunt itself is not an action (as specified in each of the
rulebooks) - it can't be blocked, can be called by a "non-active"
Methuselah, and action modifiers and reaction cards cannot be played.

I've been overstating the last part when I've said "modifiers and
reactions cannot be played because there is no action to modify
or react to". The case is properly stated as the rulebooks state:
"calling the Blood Hunt is not an action" - which doesn't mean
that there is no action taking place. Action Modifiers (like
Bewitching Oration) and Reaction cards (like Surprise Influence,
Delaying Tactics, and Political Backlash) cannot be played on the
Blood Hunt referendum because *that* is not an action - not because
there is no action at all.


To sum up:
The Blood Hunt is conducted at the time of diablerie (during the
resolution of a Diablerie action, for instance). After the Blood
Hunt, the acting vampire (if he's still around) can play Freak
Drive or be affected by "after action" effects like Daring the
Dawn or Day Operation, etc.

Hopefully that will resolve all of the conflicts about that.
My apologies for the earlier (misleading) overstatements.


The bit I've highlighted is where I think LSJ was taking his thinking from - the Blood Hunt and its destruction are not an action, and action-y things can't be used at that point, and combat only happens during actions. Which is roughly what he goes on to say:


[LSJ 20010814]

And the answer is "no" for the same reason - Blood Hunt is not part of
the combat in the same way that it is not part of the action - it is
its own little isolated event.



It's also in the Detailed Play Summary, VIII B:
A referendum is held to call a blood hunt to burn the diablerist. This is handled indepently of the action and any combat. [6.5.6]
Last edit: 09 Oct 2016 07:29 by jamesatzephyr.

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08 Oct 2016 16:17 - 08 Oct 2016 16:24 #78616 by jamesatzephyr

No, bloodhunt happens after combat if any.


Incorrect reasoning.

The Blood Hunt is isolated from the combat, and combat cards can't be played - but the underlying combat isn't over.


The following ruling is:
- the proposition that the diablerie and blood hunt are both conducted before combat ends (so an Illusions of the Kindred vampire is still around)
- LSJ ruling that's not true
- LSJ correcting himself

[LSJ 20010809]

> > Since the diablerie is in combat (else the IotK vampire couldn't commit
> > it), the Blood Hunt must be too - so the IotK vampire is still around to
> > be targeted by it.
>
> The blood hunt comes after. The diablerie ends combat (since it results
> in one of the combatants being no longer ready).
>
> This is also the basis for "diablerist cannot play Reform Body".
> If the blood hunt happened in combat (which it doesn't), then he could.

Scratch that. James is correct. The blood hunt is part of the
diablerie, so occurs (in the case of Amaranth) before the Illusionary
vampire is removed from the game.



Also, this gem from a certain floppyzedolfin:

[LSJ 20090506]

> Blood Hunt, if any, is called right after Amaranth is played. Taste of
> Vitae (or whatever other card) cannot be played before the Blood Hunt
> is called. If the vampire survives the Blood Hunt, he may still play
> Taste of Vitae.

Correct.

Last edit: 08 Oct 2016 16:24 by jamesatzephyr.

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09 Oct 2016 08:15 #78618 by GreyB
Replied by GreyB on topic Reform Body & Amaranth
Holy complication batman...

Would've been a lot simpler if the blood hunt was something a Methusaleh could call after an action where diablerie happened has been resolved. I now see it's an automatic referendum in the rulebook, has it been changed in the last 20 years? I realy thought it was something a Methusaleh could call and it even being optional..

:garg: :VIS: :POT: :FOR: :flight: -1 Strength

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09 Oct 2016 09:05 - 09 Oct 2016 09:05 #78623 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Reform Body & Amaranth

Holy complication batman...

Would've been a lot simpler if the blood hunt was something a Methusaleh could call after an action where diablerie happened has been resolved. I now see it's an automatic referendum in the rulebook, has it been changed in the last 20 years? I realy thought it was something a Methusaleh could call and it even being optional..

I looked at the rulebooks of the different editions.
In Jyhad, it was optional. In Sabbat Wars, it was still optional but it was made clear that Blood Hunt wasn't part of the action so no action modifiers etc. could be played. Since Camarilla Edition, the Blood Hunt is automatically called.

I may have skipped some editions, but it's been like this for more than 14 years. And I can't see why being optional would be more simple than being automatic.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 09 Oct 2016 09:05 by Ankha.

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