Rules questions for someone coming back in to V:tES

Below are my understanding of certain rules. Is my understanding correct? If not, would someone please help me learn the correct rules?

A player can play multiple action modifiers on an action, but each modifier has to be a different card

A player can play multiples of the same combat card during combat

If you try to bums rush a vampire, and that vampire taps and blocks, you can then replace bums rush (since the action failed due to being blocked)

During a vote, a player can have one of their princes vote for, and one of their primogen vote against a vote, I.E. not all of a players vampires have to vote one way.

During a vote, players can only burn a maximum of 1 referendum for a vote. The player who called the actual referendum cannot burn a referendum for a vote, as the calling of the actual referendum counts as their “card vote”

gymim wrote:

A player can play multiple action modifiers on an action, but each modifier has to be a different card

Almost. A minion can play multiple action modifiers on an action, but each modifier played by that minion has to be a different card. This is almost the same as what you said, but there are circumstances where:

- other vampires can play action modifiers (for example, superior Cloak the Gathering), or
- the acting minion changes. For example, Mask of a Thousand Faces.

The restriction is per-minion so, for example:

You have three vampires, and two have superior Obfuscate. The other one (without superior Obfuscate) starts an action. Another minion with Mr Winthrop (permanent +1 intercept) attempts to block. Both of the other two vampires with superior Obfuscate controlled by the acting Methuselah can play Cloak the Gathering, because the restriction is per minion.

From the rulebook, 6.2:

As it says, it works the same for other Methuselah's minions playing reactions. You could, for example, play Telepathic Counter with two vampires.

gymim wrote:

A player can play multiples of the same combat card during combat

Yes. Although, bear in mind:

- some have card-text limiting them to once per combat
- for maneuvers and presses, you can't "cancel" your own maneuver just to get them out of your hand. Say you have 3 maneuvers in hand (whether from different cards, or several of the same card). You maneuver to go to long range. You can't then maneuver back to close range, because that would essentially be cancelling the one you already played. If your opponent maneuvered back to close, you could then maneuver to long again.
- you can only use one source of additional strikes per round (unless card text allows otherwise), so you can't play Blur twice in the same round.

gymim wrote:

If you try to bums rush a vampire, and that vampire taps and blocks, you can then replace bums rush (since the action failed due to being blocked)

No. Card text on actions is (roughly) split into two types.

- There's the effect of the successful action, which happens if the action is successful and paid for. If you get blocked, that's ignored. So in the Bum's Rush example, there is no maneuver in the block combat, because all that stuff on the card got ignored.

- There's the text that applies when the action starts, such as "+1 stealth action", "Do not replace..." etc. That has already taken effect when you played the card. That's not conditional on whether you get blocked or not. Since the action is still ongoing - the block-combat is part of the blocked action - the "Do not replace..." text is still in effect. From the (then) official rules authority in response to a similar question.


[LSJ 20010127]

LSJ wrote:

> [in bold] Do not replace until the end of the action [in bold]
> Enter combat with target vampire, gain an optional maneuver if
> combat occurs.
>
> As with all cards you follow the bold texts instructions, wthere
> blocked or not. The actual card text is what is blocked. So by playing
> bums rush, you agree that until the action is over, you will not
> replace the card.

Correct. The Bold part of an action card's text above the normal
text tells you something about *taking* the action (normally something
like "requires a Prince" or "+1 stealth" or "Do not replace...")
Obviously the first two ("requires a..." and "+N stealth") apply
whether you're blocked or not - in fact they apply before the
idea of "am I blocked?" even comes up. Likewise, the question
of replacing comes up long before you find out if you're blocked
or not (action cards are normally replaced as soon as they're
played, like all cards), so the text about replacing cannot
depend on being not blocked, and is therefore in bold.

gymim wrote:

During a vote, a player can have one of their princes vote for, and one of their primogen vote against a vote, I.E. not all of a players vampires have to vote one way.

Correct. Nor do you have to cast them all at the same time - you might vote in favour with your Prince, then later in the action vote in favour with your Primogen. Or against with your Primogen.

From the rulebook, 6.3.3:
This sort of thing can be important for two reasons:

- some cards or special abilities etc. can harm a vampire casting votes, so you might want to only vote with the ones you need. Then you find out that someone is casting an extra vote against, so you use another one. etc.

- Voter Captivation is a powerful card that provides blood and/or pool, based on the number of votes the referendum passed by. In some situations, it might be the case that, say, you call a vote. I want the vote to pass, but I don't want you to get loads of blood out of it, so I cast just enough votes to make it pass, but keep some in reserve in case you play a surprise vote-gain card, and I want to vote against to limit the blood you gain. A different card, Elder Kindred Network, has a different effect but also cares about the number of votes involved (but is more rarely seen).

gymim wrote:

During a vote, players can only burn a maximum of 1 referendum for a vote. The player who called the actual referendum cannot burn a referendum for a vote, as the calling of the actual referendum counts as their “card vote”

Correct, except that if the player who called the actual referendum didn't play a political action card to do it, they can burn one of their own.

For example, some cards have card text on them that say the card can be burned by someone calling a vote, such as Archon or Elysium the Arboretum have similar text:

Since you didn't play a political action card (and thereby gain a vote), you can burn one from your hand.

From the rulebook, 6.3.3:
Note that there it's talking about ones played from your hand. Archon, for example, is a political action card that goes into play - but when you call the referendum to burn it once it's in play, it doesn't provide anyone with an extra vote to cast, so you can play one.


Also, a thing that people often miss - the vote from the political action card used to call a referendum (e.g. Kine Resources Contested) provides the vote to the Methuselah to cast, not the vampire. So if that vampire's votes are nullified or changed somehow later in the referendum, that one vote belogns to the vampire's controller and isn't changed. Again from 6.3.3:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

gymim wrote:

If you try to bums rush a vampire, and that vampire taps and blocks, you can then replace bums rush (since the action failed due to being blocked)

No. Card text on actions is (roughly) split into two types.

- There's the effect of the successful action, which happens if the action is successful and paid for. If you get blocked, that's ignored. So in the Bum's Rush example, there is no maneuver in the block combat, because all that stuff on the card got ignored.

- There's the text that applies when the action starts, such as "+1 stealth action", "Do not replace..." etc. That has already taken effect when you played the card. That's not conditional on whether you get blocked or not. Since the action is still ongoing - the block-combat is part of the blocked action - the "Do not replace..." text is still in effect. From the (then) official rules authority in response to a similar question.


[LSJ 20010127]

LSJ wrote:

> [in bold] Do not replace until the end of the action [in bold]
> Enter combat with target vampire, gain an optional maneuver if
> combat occurs.
>
> As with all cards you follow the bold texts instructions, wthere
> blocked or not. The actual card text is what is blocked. So by playing
> bums rush, you agree that until the action is over, you will not
> replace the card.

Correct. The Bold part of an action card's text above the normal
text tells you something about *taking* the action (normally something
like "requires a Prince" or "+1 stealth" or "Do not replace...")
Obviously the first two ("requires a..." and "+N stealth") apply
whether you're blocked or not - in fact they apply before the
idea of "am I blocked?" even comes up. Likewise, the question
of replacing comes up long before you find out if you're blocked
or not (action cards are normally replaced as soon as they're
played, like all cards), so the text about replacing cannot
depend on being not blocked, and is therefore in bold.

Ok, i think i get it. There are 2 styles of text on an action card in the "Bum's Rush". The Bold Text which follows through the action in total and cannot be undone at all, and then there is the simple/plain text, which gets cancelled via the blocking of the action.

So my question is: when is an action over?

My perception of the above is that the maneuver part of bum's rush doesn't happen because the action has failed, but the combat that results from the blocking creates a state where the action is still "on-going", but its current state is "failing".

Since the action is on-going via the combat, the Bold Text still applies, but since the block has placed the current on-going action in a "fail state", the simple/plain text does *not* apply.

If that is true, when does the action (in fail-state or not) actually end?

EDITING TO SAY THANK YOU! I forgot to say thank you for your replay jamesatzephyr, sorry

Thank you!

gymim wrote:

So my question is: when is an action over?

My perception of the above is that the maneuver part of bum's rush doesn't happen because the action has failed, but the combat that results from the blocking creates a state where the action is still "on-going", but its current state is "failing".

Pretty much. The Detailed Play Summary goes into a lot of detail in section IV, but it's mostly as you describe, yes.

An action gets to the "resolution" phase when the block attempts are all resolved (there might be zero of them). In that case, you either:

- handle the action success, which will usually mean paying the cost and carrying out the action. (There is the possibility of the action 'fizzling' because you can't pay all the cost, or the action resolution has become 'illegal', such as the target no longer being in play.)

- handle a blocked action. This will usually involve a block combat, and if so the block combat is still during the action. If you want to play a card at the end of the action, such as a superior Freak Drive, that goes after the block combat. (There won't always be a block combat. For example, blocking a 'leave torpor' action.)

gymim wrote:

Since the action is on-going via the combat, the Bold Text still applies, but since the block has placed the current on-going action in a "fail state", the simple/plain text does *not* apply.

Yup.

gymim wrote:

If that is true, when does the action (in fail-state or not) actually end?

Once you've resolved the action (applied the effects of success, block combat etc.), there is a gap for people to play cards like Freak Drive. Once everyone decides they're not doing anything there, the action ends.

There is then a brief "between actions" phase, which exists principally for cards like Heidelberg Castle, which cannot be used during an action.

Then the acting Methuselah gets first choice of declaring an action. If that Methuselah doesn't, other Methuselahs can declare an action, using abilities from cards such as Madness Network or Enkil Cog, which let you act in someone else's turn. (Ordinarily, you can't.)

And that keeps looping round until everyone decides they want to do no more stuff in the minion phase, and the minion phase ends.

Thank you very much! That cleared it up for me.