Revelation of Ecstasy when prey is tapped out?

Ankha wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Ankha wrote:

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Yes. And the player who has not learned the steps in logic and wording templates you just laid out (those are not quite the wording templates used in the rulebook) will immediately think, "I can't use this, the minion is already tapped."

Does this mean that the same player will think "I can't play a Theft of Vitae against a vampire with no blood"?

No. How many times have you seen a new player try to send an opposing vampire to torpor using Theft of Vitae? I've seen it many times.

I'll put it in the same category of mistakes. New players will do mistakes, however clear the rules and the cardtexts are. At some point, the players must learn logical rules that make the game work. I put an emphasis on "learn" because logical rules are not necessarily intuitive (and what's called "intuitive" also varies along with the players)

I agree that the Theft of Vitae example is a legitimate mistake by the player. But, getting back to tapping tapped minions, when new players are making the mistake of thinking that tapped minions can't be tapped over and over again, and there's no explanation in the rulebook about why it is a mistake, at what point do you address the problem behind that mistake? Do you really believe putting the onus on the player make extra effort to learn the unspoken logic of the game is such a wise idea? I realize sometimes rules are going to be non-intuitive, like stealing blood. But VTES seems to be on the far end of the non-intuitive rule spectrum. I believe it can and needs to be nudged in the other direction, at least in certain spots. Like by explaining in the rulebook that tapped minions can be tapped.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Doing something to a minion with zero blood in combat is not restricted by the rules.

Tapping a tapped card is not restricted by the rules neither.

Tapping a tapped card is not mentioned at all in the rules. It's completely on the player to discover that it's not restricted by the rules. At some point, this is going to have a detrimental effect on the game, where players don't want to make that extra effort to discover things.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Theft of Vitae is likely regarded as no different than playing Lucky Blow in this situation because there are no stop signs when an opposing minion has no blood in combat.

Stealing something from someone who has nothing is not intuitive.

I think you're getting too meta here. Think in terms of VTES. Playing a combat card that deals damage, as the majority of combat cards do, on a minion with zero blood is intuitive and encouraged by the rules. The 1% of cards that say "steal blood" are an exception, and thus it is easy for a new player to try and deal damage to a minion with zero blood with Theft of Vitae. The difference between misplaying Theft and not tapping tapped minions is that stealing blood is explained in detail in the rulebook. So, intuitive or not, the rules do explain how to handle stealing blood. The player doesn't need to discover the logic, it's laid out right there for them, even if they don't see it at first. That's the difference between a player making a mistake and the game being difficult to learn.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Now, a minion being tapped generally restricts that minion from doing anything (tapped minions can't act, can't block, can't react...). I mean, there are stop signs left and right when a minion is tapped. Thus why this player would think tapping a tapped minion is restricted.

Tapping a tapped card is not intuitive neither. I understand you find it less intuitive than stealing things from someone who has nothing. But it's nonetheless logical, and for some players, a thing they must learn.

Again, tapping doesn't happen in the real world, so I'm having a hard time understanding your comparison. Tapping something that is tapped in the context of VTES is very not intuitive because of the restrictions placed on tapped minions. Stealing blood from a minion with no blood is intuitive because of the lack of restrictions placed on playing combat cards to affect a minion with zero blood.