Crocodile Temple vs oust

Ankha wrote:

Brum wrote:

So, just to clarify if I got this right:
-Bleed Successful (Spying Mission at superior goes here)

Your label is unclear: Spying Mission is played when the bleed "would be successful", not when it is successful.

I understand. How would you label it?

Would it be possible to clear bleed action mini phases like you did for the Influence Phase?
It is still very confusing to new players all the phases between deflecting, modifying bleeds, block fails, etc..
Seasoned players should know this and explain it well, but I think the game doesn't need this extra difficulty to enter it.

Brum wrote:

Ankha wrote:

Brum wrote:

So, just to clarify if I got this right:
-Bleed Successful (Spying Mission at superior goes here)

Your label is unclear: Spying Mission is played when the bleed "would be successful", not when it is successful.

I understand. How would you label it?

Would it be possible to clear bleed action mini phases like you did for the Influence Phase?
It is still very confusing to new players all the phases between deflecting, modifying bleeds, block fails, etc..
Seasoned players should know this and explain it well, but I think the game doesn't need this extra difficulty to enter it.

Yeah. I personally am not a fan of the "would be successful" language. It refers to an undefined time point between blocks being declined and a bleed being successful, before completing the action. The problem is, a bleed "is successful" at the same time it "would be successful." So, because of the language used, these two descriptions seem to refer to the same exact time point while also referring to different time points. I've found this introduces a lot of confusion.

"only usable when a bleed is successful. Reduce the bleed to zero (it is unsuccessful) and put this card into play. The next time this minion successfully bleeds...."

yadda yadda yadda.

Am I the only one whose brain hurts a little by the concept that an action to bleed can be successful, but the bleed itself can be unsuccessful? I get it on one hand, but it really feels like cognitive dissonance to me.

self wrote:

Am I the only one whose brain hurts a little by the concept that an action to bleed can be successful, but the bleed itself can be unsuccessful?[/i]

And this is different from a vote how? Political actions can be successful, but their referenda can fail.

kschaefer wrote:

self wrote:

Am I the only one whose brain hurts a little by the concept that an action to bleed can be successful, but the bleed itself can be unsuccessful?[/i]

And this is different from a vote how? Political actions can be successful, but their referenda can fail.

Conceptually, it is not different. But there still is a problem with language. A referendum is not an action, and therefore it is not confused with an action. A bleed is defined as an action in the rulebook, but "bleed" also refers to removal of pool counters, with failure or success defined as removing 0 and >1 pool counters, respectively, independent of the action. This second definition of a bleed is ill defined in the rulebook (unlike the definition of referendums). Therefore, it is easy for one to confuse success or failure of a bleed with failure or success of the bleed action, and that's because the rulebook doesn't clearly indicate there is a distinction.

The referendum of a political action is part of the action just was the bleed is part of an action. The action must be successful for the bleed amount to be applied or the referendum to proceed. At that point the bleed or the referendum has its own effects determined by the action and its own success and failure conditions. They are exactly parallel.

This is not a full accounting, but enough to illustrate my point:

Lock to begin an action.
Blocked -> action fails.
Not blocked -> action succeeds. (For example, you will now be eligible to play FD at inferior after resolving the effect.)
Evaluate the effects of the action:
--For bleeds, that is the bleed amount plus any other effect, such as locking vampires, gaining pool, gaining blood, etc.
--For PAs, that is the declaration of terms, followed by voting.
Determine the success of the effect:
--For bleeds, it is successful if the bleed amount > 0.
--For PAs, it is successful if yeas > nays.
Action ends.