Condemn the sins of the father

Bloodartist wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

(*) I mean, you could pick a clan that isn't on the table, if you wanted to cycle it without acrimony.

Isn't this then in contradiction of the rule that requires valid targets to be available for a card to be playable in the first place?

"Strike: steal equipment" (or whatever) requires that there be a piece of equipment there.

Doing something to "all" whatever affects however many things there are in play - 1, 20, or 0. For example, you could take a useless action against a Powerbase that collects counters that had no counters on it, to take all the counters from it. (Presumably there would be a reason for this, like wanting to cycle action modifiers but not wanting to provoke a block by bleeding.) Social Ladder will still function if the vampire is empty during your influence phase. You could burn a pool with Path of Evil Revelations to untap all your infernal vampires, even if you had zero (perhaps to move you out of range of Parity Shift).

My point was that you just said that the card targets,

jamesatzephyr wrote:

You choose a clan. The action then targets all the vampires of that clan, as per your choice.

and
Digizoom

If a card targets (chooses, selects, is played on, etc.) some target, then the card can only be played if an appropriate target is available .

This rule doesn't specify the type of card or interaction.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Border Skirmish targets all Methuselahs, so is directed. Wave of Insanity superior targets all allies, so will be directed if one (or more) of those allies is controlled by another Methuselah.

See, amongst other sources, www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/65261-sowing-skirmish

LSJ ruled wave of insanity to be undirected
groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/1jW6GXrIRSU/8QTYL98kB0gJ

Since we are here on the subject of Directed actions, let me hijack a bit with a relevant question:

Shattering Crescendo vs Zaire River Ferry (or and effect that forbids or fails D actions against a specific Vampire)

So, my question is - if a card targets a player and its effect affect vampire(s), does that mean that the said action is directed both at a player and vampires?

In other words, if I play a Shattering Crescendo and I choose as my target a Zaire River Ferry-equipped vamp, can he use it to cause the entire action to fail?

Discard a Shattering Crescendo from your hand to inflict 2 unpreventable damage on each of up to 2 minions controlled by a single Methuselah.

You may tap this location when a action directed at this Lasombra is announced to cause that action to fail.

(quoted relevant parts)

Bloodartist wrote:

My point was that you just said that the card targets,
...

If a card targets (chooses, selects, is played on, etc.) some target, then the card can only be played if an appropriate target is available .

It does target them, if there are any in play - which 99% of the time there will be, because you'll be playing it to tap people's vampires usefully.

Strike: steal equipment targets a specific piece of equipment - so you need one. Choose a vampire targets a specific vampire, so you need one in play to target. Tap all allies taps however many of them are in play, which may be zero or twenty, or any other number. If there are any in play, they're targets.

Bloodartist wrote:

[LSJ ruled wave of insanity to be undirected
groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/1jW6GXrIRSU/8QTYL98kB0gJ

Look at the date of the post you are screenshotting.

Then look at the date of the release of Keepers of Tradition , where the rule was changed.

Unless you are willing to share your flux capacitor with the rest of us, rulings issued before a rule change will not reflect the rule as it exists after a rule change.

It was - as mentioned in the vekn.net thread I already linked - largely as a result of the discussions between Jozxyqk and LSJ in that RTR, and subsequent private emails between them, that the rule was changed in KoT to the current rule.

Kiddo wrote:

So, my question is - if a card targets a player and its effect affect vampire(s), does that mean that the said action is directed both at a player and vampires?

So I think you're mis-reading Shattering Crescendo's text, in that it doesn't target the Methuselah directly - it simply requires there to be two minions controlled by the same Methuselah.

However, anything that targets a minion also targets the controlling Methuselah anyway.

Kiddo wrote:

In other words, if I play a Shattering Crescendo and I choose as my target a Zaire River Ferry-equipped vamp, can he use it to cause the entire action to fail?

Sure, it's a action targeting that vampire.

(And would have been in the pre-KoT world too, as both targets are controlled by the same Methuselah.)