Pressing Flesh from other player's ash heap
30 Nov 2018 22:26 #92167
by jamesatzephyr
That actions affecting other people's ash heaps are undirected? Pretty sure it hasn't. I'm not sure it was even possible to affect someone else's ash heap in Jyhad or V:TES - I think the only times the word ash heap turn up are on Embrace (Jyhad text) and Third Tradition, so it probably didn't occur to them to specify that. A quick check with my WotC-era card text file for Jyhad suggests that those are the only place, anyway.
The copy of the Jyhad rulebook in the patent office library: patents.google.com/patent/WO1996004968A1/en suggests that this is what was said about directed actions:
No mention of the ash heap, just things that directly affect the Methuselah. Most of the arguments about directedness in the WotC era were due to the back and forth on whether "
Bleed" on action cards implied omnidirectability or not.
LSJ's first rulings on this were in 2001, as listed on www.vekn.net/general-rulings I can't say for certain, but it's possible that Final Nights - released Mid 2001 - was the first set to prompt the question. I can't off-hand think of anything in DS/AH/Sabbat that does it (but admittedly haven't checked). LSJ's explanations in 2001 are, as far as I'm aware, the first time the issue crystallised regarding the ash heap.
PErhaps the biggest weirdness is that in his 2001 explanation, LSJ explains that - in effect - the fact that actions against things that aren't controlled (uncontrolled region, hand, library, crypt) are themselves the exceptions to the rulebook that, I would guess, most people had probably intuited come under the definition of - even though from a strict viewpoint, the V:TES rulebook didn't say that. The PDF from 1998 I have (which may not be entirely faithful, but is still a WotC production) says:
So the thing that gets everyone slightly weirded out is that things like Darius Styx said they were and everyone just kind of got it, even though the close scrutiny of the rules suggested that it wasn't.
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Pressing Flesh from other player's ash heap
But it's been in the rulebook since day one.
That actions affecting other people's ash heaps are undirected? Pretty sure it hasn't. I'm not sure it was even possible to affect someone else's ash heap in Jyhad or V:TES - I think the only times the word ash heap turn up are on Embrace (Jyhad text) and Third Tradition, so it probably didn't occur to them to specify that. A quick check with my WotC-era card text file for Jyhad suggests that those are the only place, anyway.
The copy of the Jyhad rulebook in the patent office library: patents.google.com/patent/WO1996004968A1/en suggests that this is what was said about directed actions:
Blocking An Action:
Who May Block Whom: Whenever your minion announces an action, other Methuselah can attempt to block that action to prevent it from taking place. Actions that directly affect another Methuselah are called directed actions and can only be blocked by that Methuselah's minions. Other actions are called non-directed and can be blocked by either your predator's or prey's minions. Directed actions are noted on action cards with a D in the card text and allow you to direct the action against any Methuselah. If the D does not appear, it is not a directed action. The only directed actions that do not require a card are bleeding and encountering another Methuselah's vampire in torpor. Non-directed actions are actions that are not directed against a Methuselah, such as equipping one of your minions. ...
Who May Block Whom: Whenever your minion announces an action, other Methuselah can attempt to block that action to prevent it from taking place. Actions that directly affect another Methuselah are called directed actions and can only be blocked by that Methuselah's minions. Other actions are called non-directed and can be blocked by either your predator's or prey's minions. Directed actions are noted on action cards with a D in the card text and allow you to direct the action against any Methuselah. If the D does not appear, it is not a directed action. The only directed actions that do not require a card are bleeding and encountering another Methuselah's vampire in torpor. Non-directed actions are actions that are not directed against a Methuselah, such as equipping one of your minions. ...
No mention of the ash heap, just things that directly affect the Methuselah. Most of the arguments about directedness in the WotC era were due to the back and forth on whether "
Bleed" on action cards implied omnidirectability or not.LSJ's first rulings on this were in 2001, as listed on www.vekn.net/general-rulings I can't say for certain, but it's possible that Final Nights - released Mid 2001 - was the first set to prompt the question. I can't off-hand think of anything in DS/AH/Sabbat that does it (but admittedly haven't checked). LSJ's explanations in 2001 are, as far as I'm aware, the first time the issue crystallised regarding the ash heap.
PErhaps the biggest weirdness is that in his 2001 explanation, LSJ explains that - in effect - the fact that actions against things that aren't controlled (uncontrolled region, hand, library, crypt) are themselves the exceptions to the rulebook that, I would guess, most people had probably intuited come under the definition of
- even though from a strict viewpoint, the V:TES rulebook didn't say that. The PDF from 1998 I have (which may not be entirely faithful, but is still a WotC production) says:
If the action is not directed at another Methuselah (or at something controlled by another Methuselah), then the action is called undirected* and can be blocked by the acting Methuselah’s prey or predator, with the prey getting the first opportunity to block.
So the thing that gets everyone slightly weirded out is that things like Darius Styx said they were
and everyone just kind of got it, even though the close scrutiny of the rules suggested that it wasn't. Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
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