Discussion: Card costs and presentation

Ankha wrote:

Some cards consider the cost of the card, even if you don't play it.
For instance, you can't play an Illegal Search and Seizure on a Combat Shotgun equipped by Black Cat.

Great example of how confusing VTES rules are. In my opinion and interpretation of the rules you should be able to burn the Combat Shotgun.

The reason: The cost to play Combat Shotgun is 3, as printed on the card.

Instead, you are apparently using the fleeting, transient cost specific to this instance of the Combat Shotgun card, that black Cat HAPPENED to make cheaper by Black Cat's ability. The problem is that this is a transient thing that players must keep track of and that is not marked in any way. You must keep track of the fact that this particular gun was made cheaper by Black Cat, and in my opinion, this is wholly unnecessary. This is an example of a rule that makes game more complex, without adding game depth. It does not make players ponder the strategy any more than the other interpretation would, it merely increases the likelihood of game mistakes and failure to maintain game state by adding one more thing that players must remember during the current game, instead of using a card that's RIGHT THERE ON THE TABLE IN FRONT OF THE PLAYERS.

We discussed this a year or so back if I'm not mistaken. This is a BAD thing for many reasons. In particular, these kind of rules make games slower because players must check and recheck these things whenever they are making a play. They are wasting time ensuring that they are not making a mistake, instead of concentrating on actual gameplay. Not to mention that mistakes are inevitable, and misinterpretations of the rules are abundant.

If you cannot see the difference between a rule simple to understand and to apply, and that doesn't hinder gameplay, and this - then I just... give up. You will continue making poor rules.

Bloodartist wrote:

If you cannot see the difference between a rule simple to understand and to apply, and that doesn't hinder gameplay, and this - then I just... give up. You will continue making poor rules.

I think you need to realize that these rules, while potentially needing an extra bit of brain power to understand, are here to stay in VTES. The only real way to incorporate less complex rules regarding cost is to blow things up and start over. It's been made very clear by those involved with producing the game that this is not happening. So the complex rules regarding cost are here to stay.

Now, our next best option besides actually changing rules regarding cost is to modify how the rules regarding costs are communicated. We can add further clarification and a concrete definition of cost in the rulebook. I believe simply communicating the rules better can ameliorate many of the issues regarding complex rules in VTES.

If you're expecting VTES to adapt and incorporate less complex rules, that is likely not going to happen, barring remaking the game from scratch. I would stress that focusing on communicating existing rules should be a priority for now.

Ankha wrote:

Before ranting aggressively, please check the rules. Ironically, you are right on only one point: it is wholly unnecessary to track which gun was equipped by Black Cat at some point. You only have to look at the equipment currently equipped by Black Cat. No tracking.

All you have to do is read the card: "Equipment costs Black Cat 1 less pool." She has a Combat Shotgun whose printed cost is 3? Well, she reduces its cost by 1 => it costs 2. This apply when she has to pay the cost, and when some effects takes the cost into consideration.
The weapon is moved to someone else? Its cost is no longer reduced, it costs 3.

I hope I'm not derailing things further, but what about a Combat Shotgun equipped via a Jack of Both Sides? Can it be illegaly searched and seizured?

Yomyael wrote:

I hope I'm not derailing things further, but what about a submachine gun equipped via a Jack of Both Sides? Can it be illegaly searched and seizured?

Yes. You check the cost of the weapon when IS&S was played. The cost of a Submachine Gun is 4 pool or 3 in the case of Black Cat, either of which is greater than 2, the threshold for IS&S.