file Discussion: clear and consistent wording templates

12 Feb 2019 20:05 #93446 by 2wayspeaker
When the rulebook is unclear about cost and requirements.
Because cost and requirements doesn't have to be explained clearly in the rulebook because it is in the addendum. That has never been included in a printed rulebook.
And that addendum explains a template when half the cards don't even follow any template.
It uses the words Tap X To Do Y. Try to find a To Do Y in the list of cards text above.

Then using that addendum to say "everything is clear and well explained by this, try to prove me wrong"

Can you point out cases where the "tap ... to ..." template is not consistent?

This is the case. The usage of "tap ... to ..." is consistent and provides structure to the text.


Clearly an unrelated discussion that has nothing to do with critiquing the rulebook.
It is unclear how to interpret those card texts I listed above by using only what the rulebook describes...

Someone even came back to answer me with "Because LSJ said so" instead of using the text in the rulebook to explain what the rules are.

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12 Feb 2019 21:05 - 12 Feb 2019 21:06 #93448 by TwoRazorReign

Moderators and admins maintain these guidelines and see to that they are followed. Their word is final.

I will make an exception and explain, as I feel it is required:

Moving this discussion to a separate thread is not undermining. Rather, it should reinforce its impact as it won't clutter other topics, or be cluttered by them. The discussion will have more room for growth.

This is the reason. You may resume discussion.

Thank you, I am aware that I "may resume discussion." With all due respect, saying that my post is going to clutter other topics, declaring that you are making an "exception" to explain something, and then not answering my question is insulting, pompous, and annoying, respectively.

I'll repeat my question: where did you get the idea that the rulebook post was about listing mistakes? I'm asking because, had I understood it as such, I would not have posted there. Perhaps I really misunderstood the intent of that thread?
Last edit: 12 Feb 2019 21:06 by TwoRazorReign.

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13 Feb 2019 09:36 - 13 Feb 2019 09:37 #93455 by Ankha


Let's play a quick game:
Try to get these to fit a template, then decide how they work.
Answer for each the template used and if you can play them locked.
  • Lock one of your prey's ready minions and place a corruption counter on that minion.
  • Tap this vampire. This vampire enters combat with the blocking minion.
  • Put this card on any untapped vampire. Tap that vampire; he or she does not untap as normal during his or her controller's untap phase.
  • Burn 1 blood on an untapped vampire and tap that vampire.
  • Tap this reacting vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah. As above, but do not tap this vampire.
  • This Laibon may burn a blood and tap three of his or her Aye to be able to play reaction cards and attempt to block as if untapped for the current action.
  • Tap a ready minion and untap this acting vampire.
  • Tap to give a vampire you control +1 intercept for the current action.
  • Tap a ready minion. This acting vampire inflicts 1 unpreventable damage on that minion.
  • During your untap phase, you may tap up to 2 vampires controlled by your prey or burn an equipment on one of your prey's minions. If you do so, your prey takes control of the Anarch Troublemaker.
  • Tap any untapped minion, and that minion burns 1 blood or life.
  • Reduce a bleed against you by 2, or tap to reduce a bleed against any Methuselah by 2.
  • Only usable when this Baali successfully blocks an ally or a younger vampire.
    Tap this Baali and end the action (with no combat). This Baali inflicts 1 unpreventable damage on the acting minion and each of his or her retainers.
  • Burn a haven on an ally or younger vampire, or tap an ally or younger vampire. As above, and inflict 1 damage on that minion.
  • Tap a younger vampire and put this card on that vampire; you still control this card. This vampire does not untap as normal.
  • The action fails. Tap this reacting vampire. As above, and the acting minion does not untap as normal during his or her next untap phase.
  • Put this card on a ready minion and tap that minion. This minion cannot play cards or cast votes or ballots. This minion does not untap as normal.
  • Tap this Gangrel antitribu. This Gangrel antitribu enters combat with the opposing minion.
  • Tap any ready minion. As above, and that minion burns 1 blood.
  • Only usable by a ready, untapped vampire. Usable when an ally you control is blocked, before combat begins. The combat is canceled; untap the acting minion and tap this modifying vampire. This vampire enters combat with the blocking minion.
  • Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Tap this vampire to cause the action to fail.
  • When a blocking anarch has just completed combat with an acting minion, you may tap this card and a ready untapped anarch you control other than the blocking anarch. That anarch enters combat with the acting minion.
  • You may tap this card as a minion you control announces an action. If the action is blocked, the range of each round of the resulting combat is automatically close. Skip the determine range step each round.
  • Choose 2 ready Toreador you control. The first Toreador's non-bleed actions cannot be blocked. The second Toreador does not untap as normal during the untap phase; tap the second Toreador.
  • Cancel a non-combat card that requires Dementation, Dominate or Presence as it is played (no cost is paid). Tap this vampire.

Best of luck. You'll need it.

No need for luck. In bold you'll find the effects whose cost is locking to do something. Of course, without context, this list is a little dumb since you're mixing actions (requiring an unlocked vampire), reactions (that can be played with a wake effect etc.),cards that stipulate that the minion must be unlocked (in italics), and master cards (Anarch Troublemaker).

There are two cards I highlighted in red that have very old cardtext and which are not really consistent. Otherwise, it's pretty straight forward.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 13 Feb 2019 09:37 by Ankha.

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13 Feb 2019 18:44 - 13 Feb 2019 19:18 #93458 by 2wayspeaker
I mixed in a little bit of everything (correct ones too, even though none of them actually use your template). Keep in mind your template is 'Tap X To Do Y' and it this rule is hidden in an addendum of the rulebook.

No need for luck. In bold you'll find the effects whose cost is locking to do something.

  • This Laibon may burn a blood and tap three of his or her Aye to be able to play reaction cards and attempt to block as if untapped for the current action.
Variation on the template. The clause does not start with "Tap"and doesn't use "To Do".


Still, this is what your new player will be reading. and it's not consistent.

You marked 6/25 as following a template.
You marked 2/25 as having an explicit "Unlocked Vampire" requirement.

You marked 2/25 as outdated unclear cardtext.

So we have 8 correctly templated cards, 15 unclear, and 2 definitly wrong card texts.

Would it not be better to expand the description in the rulebook?
Pretending the rulebook is clear about the 25 above cards is optimistic.



There are two cards I highlighted in red that have very old cardtext and which are not really consistent. Otherwise, it's pretty straight forward.

  • You may tap this card as a minion you control announces an action. If the action is blocked, the range of each round of the resulting combat is automatically close. Skip the determine range step each round.

This is a fun one, According to the current rulebook I can use Storm Sewers on each action, and the only thing you can do to stop it is to answer "because LSJ said so" and that means something is falling short in the rulebook.

(hint: it's the section on costs and requirements)
Last edit: 13 Feb 2019 19:18 by 2wayspeaker.

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13 Feb 2019 19:08 - 13 Feb 2019 19:16 #93459 by brandonsantacruz

It's about the rulebook. Specifically:

“Lock X to do Y”: Some cards use this wording, for instance: superior Bauble, Isanwayen. Such effects can’t be used by locked minions, even by those under a wake effect. These effects require an unlocked minion to be used. Conversely, “Lock X. Do Y” effects (for instance: Redirection) are usable by locked minions under a wake effect.


Sidebar: I consider this templating to be unnecessary and confusing, especially as it concerns reaction cards and effects. There may be particular cards that rules mongers may consider abuseable. Those cards should be addressed individually since Wake has been around since Jyhad and is easier to understand without splitting hairs about tapping as a cost vs effect.

Thanks for taking on the task of discussing templating, I believe it is a barrier to really understanding how VTES is supposed to work.

Be careful when you fight the monsters, lest you become one.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

brandonsantacruz.blogspot.com/
Last edit: 13 Feb 2019 19:16 by brandonsantacruz.

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