Strike restriction and Dog Pack
09 Apr 2019 14:31 #94459
by Ratadin
Strike restriction and Dog Pack was created by Ratadin
I have a question regarding strike timing, restrictions and Dog Pack.
The question is, a card that prohibits a minion from doing a certain type of strike stops them only from choosing that strike, from resolving that strike, or both?
In this case, if a minion had a Dog Pack employed, could the opposing minion choose a combat end (and so, cycling it), even though they could not resolve it? If not, could I play a Dog Pack through Summon Spirit Beast after they declare their strike:combat end to stop it from resolving?
A similar case that comes to mind is immortal grapple and an strike with optional maneuvers (like magnum or aid from bat): If I understand it correctly, a minion would declare a strike with optional maneuver during the range phase to use the maneuver, then the immortal would be played and, as the strike was chosen, they won't be able to use it. Use being the key card here as immortal specifies "Use", but Dog pack doesn't.
So, what is the exact ruling for strikes, strikes with maneuvers and strike restrictions?
Summon Spirit Beast [LoB:R]
Cardtype: Combat/Reaction
Cost: X blood
Discipline: Spiritus/Animalism
[ani] [COMBAT] Discard X cards.
[spi] [COMBAT][REACTION] Move X animal retainers from your ash heap to this vampire, with life from the blood bank equal to their starting amounts. After this minion phase ends, burn those retainers.
[SPI] As [spi] above, but the retainers are not burned until after the end of your next minion phase.
Dog Pack [AH:R2, Anarchs:PG]
Cardtype: Retainer
Clan: Gangrel
Cost: 2 pool
Animal with 1 life.
Minions opposing the minion with this retainer cannot end combat as a strike.
Immortal Grapple [Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, Sabbat:U, SW:U/PB, FN:PG, CE:U/PB2, Third:U, LotN:PG2, KoT:U/PB3, HttB:PGar3]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Potence
Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Grapple.
[pot] Strikes that are not hand strikes may not be used this round (by either combatant). A vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round.
[POT] As above, with an optional press. If another round of combat occurs, that round is at close range; skip the determine range step for that round.
The question is, a card that prohibits a minion from doing a certain type of strike stops them only from choosing that strike, from resolving that strike, or both?
In this case, if a minion had a Dog Pack employed, could the opposing minion choose a combat end (and so, cycling it), even though they could not resolve it? If not, could I play a Dog Pack through Summon Spirit Beast after they declare their strike:combat end to stop it from resolving?
A similar case that comes to mind is immortal grapple and an strike with optional maneuvers (like magnum or aid from bat): If I understand it correctly, a minion would declare a strike with optional maneuver during the range phase to use the maneuver, then the immortal would be played and, as the strike was chosen, they won't be able to use it. Use being the key card here as immortal specifies "Use", but Dog pack doesn't.
So, what is the exact ruling for strikes, strikes with maneuvers and strike restrictions?
Summon Spirit Beast [LoB:R]
Cardtype: Combat/Reaction
Cost: X blood
Discipline: Spiritus/Animalism
[ani] [COMBAT] Discard X cards.
[spi] [COMBAT][REACTION] Move X animal retainers from your ash heap to this vampire, with life from the blood bank equal to their starting amounts. After this minion phase ends, burn those retainers.
[SPI] As [spi] above, but the retainers are not burned until after the end of your next minion phase.
Dog Pack [AH:R2, Anarchs:PG]
Cardtype: Retainer
Clan: Gangrel
Cost: 2 pool
Animal with 1 life.
Minions opposing the minion with this retainer cannot end combat as a strike.
Immortal Grapple [Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, Sabbat:U, SW:U/PB, FN:PG, CE:U/PB2, Third:U, LotN:PG2, KoT:U/PB3, HttB:PGar3]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Potence
Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Grapple.
[pot] Strikes that are not hand strikes may not be used this round (by either combatant). A vampire may play only one Immortal Grapple each round.
[POT] As above, with an optional press. If another round of combat occurs, that round is at close range; skip the determine range step for that round.
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09 Apr 2019 14:41 #94460
by Ratadin
Replied by Ratadin on topic Strike restriction and Dog Pack
To make matters even worse, i have two conflicting rulings:
LSJ
groups.google.com/d/topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/CUiFanzq42k/discussion
Pascal
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/11078-cannot-use-equipment-and-summon-spirit-beast
So... Who's right?
LSJ
groups.google.com/d/topic/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/CUiFanzq42k/discussion
Pascal
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/11078-cannot-use-equipment-and-summon-spirit-beast
So... Who's right?
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10 Apr 2019 09:31 - 10 Apr 2019 09:34 #94477
by Bloodartist
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Strike restriction and Dog Pack
I am not a judge, but I am fairly certain that in VTES dog pack prevents you from playing a combat end card. As a rule of thumb in VTES, you cannot play cards that would have an illegal effect. You must be able to apply it, similarly that you have to be able to pay the cost of a card. It's bit iffy, but at least its pretty consistent in VTES.
edit: Dog pack says that opponent cannot "Choose combat end as a strike". You play the card as you choose the strike. You cannot choose the strike, you cannot play the card.
edit: Dog pack says that opponent cannot "Choose combat end as a strike". You play the card as you choose the strike. You cannot choose the strike, you cannot play the card.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Last edit: 10 Apr 2019 09:34 by Bloodartist.
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10 Apr 2019 17:21 #94485
by jamesatzephyr
No it doesn't.
www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Strike restriction and Dog Pack
edit: Dog pack says that opponent cannot "Choose combat end as a strike".
No it doesn't.
www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt
Minions opposing the minion with this retainer cannot end combat as a strike.
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11 Apr 2019 14:47 - 13 Apr 2019 09:19 #94494
by Bloodartist
So the answer to the topic question is...?
ps. The card probably should have the text I posted, because my text is clearer.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Strike restriction and Dog Pack
edit: Dog pack says that opponent cannot "Choose combat end as a strike".
No it doesn't.
www.vekn.net/images/stories/downloads/cardlist.txt
Minions opposing the minion with this retainer cannot end combat as a strike.
So the answer to the topic question is...?
ps. The card probably should have the text I posted, because my text is clearer.
A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing
Last edit: 13 Apr 2019 09:19 by Bloodartist.
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12 Apr 2019 07:21 - 12 Apr 2019 07:26 #94496
by Palamedes
Both, plus you cannot play a card (to cycle) that gives you S:CE, because you have to play a card that gives a valid strike.
If by any way you have already defined your strike as S:CE, you don't have a strike at all.
Note: Dog Pack cannot prevent Rötschreck, because it is not a strike.
Replied by Palamedes on topic Strike restriction and Dog Pack
I have a question regarding strike timing, restrictions and Dog Pack.
The question is, a card that prohibits a minion from doing a certain type of strike stops them only from choosing that strike, from resolving that strike, or both?
Both, plus you cannot play a card (to cycle) that gives you S:CE, because you have to play a card that gives a valid strike.
If by any way you have already defined your strike as S:CE, you don't have a strike at all.
Note: Dog Pack cannot prevent Rötschreck, because it is not a strike.
Last edit: 12 Apr 2019 07:26 by Palamedes. Reason: Adding the "Note".
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