question-circle Blood Brothers, Circles, Embraces and Angelo

16 Oct 2019 19:22 #97427 by Ratadin
I have a lot of questions about circles and how they interact with Angelo. I am probably asking things that have been asked already, but I need to ask them both to have all of those together, and so the answers can all be consistent. So, in order:

1) What circle does a vampire without an stated circle have? For instance, if a non-Blood Brother vampire uses Clan Impersonation, or if a Hermana Hambrienta embraces, what is the circle of the resulting Blood Brother?

Reading through the forum, I kind of understand that those Blood Brother's will have a "themselves" circle, that is, a circle that only contains them, so, Circle Embrace-1, Circle Embrace-2, etc... I need confirmation on this.

Previous post talking about this
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/70549-re-blood-brother-dual-form-embrace?start=6

2) Can Angelo interact with those circles? That is, could be considered Angelo as part of those cicles?

As I read on this post, Angelo can. I understand this ruling still aplies.

Angelo
Independent. Red List: All Blood Brothers may play cards that require Sanguinus as if Angelo were a member of any circle. Angelo can burn a location as a action. He cannot have or use retainers. Sterile.

3) Can Angelo interact with different circles at once? That is, if I one unlocked Torrance Circle vampire and one unlocked Chicago Circle vampire in play, if Angelo played Unwholesome Bond, would he gain 3 blood? Or does he need to state the circle, being limited to gaining 2 blood? This also applies to Unwholesome Bond superior version. Could he put blood on multiple circles at once?

Unwholesome Bond
+1 stealth action. [san] This vampire gains X+1 blood, where X is the number of ready, unlocked Blood Brothers of the same circle as the acting vampire. [SAN] Add 1 blood from the blood bank to each Blood Brother in your uncontrolled region of the same circle as the acting vampire.

4) If the answer to question 3 was affirmative, how would Redistribution work? Could Angelo, in the previous situation, take blood both from Torrance and Chicago? If so, could he bring blood from Torrance to himself, and then from himself to chicago (virtually transfering blood from torrance to chicago)?

Redistribution
+1 stealth action. [san] This acting vampire gains a blood. Then move any amount of blood and equipment among the Blood Brothers in this circle. [SAN] As above, and unlock this acting vampire.

5) What is the circle of BB without circle on the uncontrolled zone? It is the same answer at in question 1? If so, could Angelo use Hive Mind to put blood on a New Blood, or on another copy of Angelo?

6) How does New Blood interact with all this? Could New Blood choose "Embrace Number 1 Circle" as his circle, being able to use Sanguino cards with Embrace Number 1?

New Blood
Sabbat: When New Blood enters play during your influence phase, choose a circle and draw 1 card from your crypt. New Blood belongs to the chosen circle. Sterile.

Thank you.

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16 Oct 2019 23:19 - 16 Oct 2019 23:20 #97429 by jamesatzephyr

1) What circle does a vampire without an stated circle have? For instance, if a non-Blood Brother vampire uses Clan Impersonation, or if a Hermana Hambrienta embraces, what is the circle of the resulting Blood Brother?


As per the rulebook: www.vekn.net/rulebook
Circle: Each Blood Brother is identified with a particular circle. A vampire without a circle designation is his own circle.

If you have five vampires who are Blood Brothers but without a circle designation for whatever reason and you're trying to use circle-relevant cards with them, each of those five vampires is in its own, separate, different circle.

2) Can Angelo interact with those circles? That is, could be considered Angelo as part of those cicles?


When in play, yes - that's what his card text allows.

When uncontrolled, his special text doesn't apply like other vampire's special text doesn't apply when uncontrolled. Relevant for Hive Mind superior, and Unwholesome Bond.

3) Can Angelo interact with different circles at once?


Each card sees him as one specific circle, not every circle simultaneously. You have to pick.

Example:

[LSJ 20050927]

> - Controlled Angelo wants to make UB ; in uncontrolled are both some
> Torrance and another Angelo : does he have to choose on which he'll do
> the UB or can he do it on both ?

He chooses.




Could he put blood on multiple circles at once?


No. Cards treat him as one circle.


5) What is the circle of BB without circle on the uncontrolled zone? It is the same answer at in question 1? If so, could Angelo use Hive Mind to put blood on a New Blood, or on another copy of Angelo?


Yes. Yes. Yes.

6) How does New Blood interact with all this? Could New Blood choose "Embrace Number 1 Circle" as his circle, being able to use Sanguino cards with Embrace Number 1?


I don't believe the question has come up before. But if Angelo can choose to be in the same circle as a vampire without a circle (which he can - another, uncontrolled copy of Angelo is in its own circle, as above), I can't see any reason New Blood couldn't pick to be in Angelo's own circle or a specific Embrace's circle.
Last edit: 16 Oct 2019 23:20 by jamesatzephyr.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ratadin

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23 Oct 2019 13:44 #97529 by Bloodartist

As per the rulebook: www.vekn.net/rulebook
Circle: Each Blood Brother is identified with a particular circle. A vampire without a circle designation is his own circle.


So, can a controlled Angelo do an unwholesome bond to move blood to uncontrolled Angelos? As far as I understand "circle of his own" means that all Angelos are the same circle?

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



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24 Oct 2019 23:30 #97550 by jamesatzephyr

So, can a controlled Angelo do an unwholesome bond to move blood to uncontrolled Angelos?


One uncontrolled Angelo, not all uncontrolled Angelos.

Each copy of a vampire without a circle designation has its own circle - essentially, "Circle-This-Copy-of-This-Vampire".

As far as I understand "circle of his own" means that all Angelos are the same circle?


No. If that was the intention, all Angelos would be in "Angelo Circle", rather than no circle.

[LSJ 20050927]

>> May Angelo, acting as a Circle of One, use UB (SAN) to move Blood to
>> Angelo(s) in your uncontrolled region?
>
> For one Angelo, the answer seems obvious:
>
> "All Blood Brothers may play cards that require Sanguinus as if Angelo
> were a member of any circle. Angelo can burn a location as a (D)
> action. He cannot have or use retainers. Sterile."
>
> Controlled Angelo is a Blood Brother, Unwholesome Bond requires
> Sanguinus. Uncontrolled Angelo has a circle (otherwise no Unwholesome
> Bond would work, right?). Ergo Controlled Angelo can play Unwholesome
> Bond as if a member of the (anonymous) circle of an uncontrolled Angelo.
>
> It's ambiguous whether "a vampire without a circle designation is his
> own circle" means that all uncontrolled Angelos are part of the same
> circle, but I'd be inclined to say no.
[...]
> Another reason I'd give is that there's a way to express that all
> Angelos are in the same circle - by printing on the card a circle name
> not used by any other vampire. And they didn't do that.

Correct.

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24 Oct 2019 23:33 #97551 by jamesatzephyr

6) How does New Blood interact with all this? Could New Blood choose "Embrace Number 1 Circle" as his circle, being able to use Sanguino cards with Embrace Number 1?


I don't believe the question has come up before. But if Angelo can choose to be in the same circle as a vampire without a circle (which he can - another, uncontrolled copy of Angelo is in its own circle, as above), I can't see any reason New Blood couldn't pick to be in Angelo's own circle or a specific Embrace's circle.


Looking up the previous answer made me stumble over this, which potentially stops it:

[LSJ 20020609]

> Aabbt Kindred, different Embraces, etc. would each be in their own Circle). In
> addition, is an Illusory copy of the same vampire in that same circle? For

No.
The vampire is in a circle of one.
There cannot be two vampires in a circle of one.


Probably... Angelo is never actually in the circle of one of another vampire, just faking it.

But New Blood would actually be in it, which appears to be prohibited.

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25 Oct 2019 07:33 - 25 Oct 2019 07:33 #97563 by Ankha
No, New Blood can't be of the same circle as the "circle of one" of another vampire.

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Last edit: 25 Oct 2019 07:33 by Ankha.

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