file Toreador Grandball vs. Eternal Vigilance / Under Siege

06 Jun 2020 20:36 #100036 by Hakuron
Looks helpful, thanks.

Vincent, could we please get an official ruling/clarification on that matter?
(Since unblockable actions happen every now and then, this aspect maybe should be included in the base rulebook.)

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nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

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06 Jun 2020 23:11 - 06 Jun 2020 23:27 #100039 by Kilrauko

Name: Toreador Grand Ball
Cardtype: Master
Clan: Toreador
Cost: 1 pool
Master.
Put this card in play. Choose 2 ready Toreador you control. The first Toreador's non-bleed actions cannot be blocked. The second Toreador does not unlock as normal during the unlock phase; lock the second Toreador. Any minion may burn this card as a (D) action; Nosferatu get -1 stealth when attempting that action.

Name: Eternal Vigilance
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
+1 stealth action. Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent.
Put this card on the acting vampire. During an action, this Sabbat vampire can burn 1 blood to unlock and attempt to block. Burn this card if this vampire goes to torpor.

Name: Under Siege
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 pool
+1 stealth action. Requires a titled Sabbat vampire. Unique.
Put this card in play with 3 counters. Once each action, a Sabbat vampire you control can burn 1 counter from this card to unlock and attempt to block with +1 intercept, even if intercept is not yet needed. Burn this card if it has no counters.



A Toreador chosen for the benefit of TGB performs a non-bleed action.
Can a reacting vampire use Eternal Vigilance or Under Siege to unlock (and of course fail to block)?

Thanks in advance!
:tore:


No.

It has to do with how how block attempt works.
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/xSwqmPbhadM/8xvodL343JoJ

Dorrinal Blackmantle wrote:
> LSJ wrote:

>>lehrbuch wrote:
>>>A sequence that does work is: Wake with Evening's Freshness, (Superior)
>>>Eagle's Sight, (Superior) Black Sunrise.
>>
>>Correct.
>
> Eagle's Sight: Reaction, Auspex
> [aus] This reacting vampire gets +1 intercept.
> [AUS] This reacting vampire attempts to block the current action,
> ignoring the normal prey, predator or target restrictions for blocking
> actions.
>
> Since Eagle's Sight at [AUS] causes a block attempt, don't you lose the
> window in which to play Black Sunrise (to untap and attempt to block)?

No. You may attempt to block while attempting to block. It is
indeed difficult to do otherwise.


Toreador Grandball says non-bleed actions by the minion cannot be blocked. Minions need to be able to do something (either via cards or via rulebook) to attempt it.

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/cHdOwueG71I/BTBYvTZhrAUJ

On Aug 23, 9:44 am, Sim <> wrote:
> Hmmmm, I don't agree with this. I don't see why you can't do this
> action knowing it will very likely fail.

Because you can't attempt something you cannot do.
...
> I think this is different than Concealed Weapon where it happens
> immediately.

That is a difference, but that difference is immaterial in this
matter: you cannot attempt what you cannot do.



Minions have no inherited properties outside those stated somewhere. Neither Eternal Vigilance nor Under Siege say they allow block attempts on unblockable actions. Neither does the minion X that has them, or the methuselah controlling minion X. If they did, the attempt could be made, in the same vein as Rewind Time reaction at superior allows it to be played even if there is no action card by the merit of it specifically says it can be played where reactions usually cannot be.

Name: Rewind Time
[BL:R2, LoB:R]
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Temporis/Presence
[ pre ] Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
[tem] Cancel an action card as it is played (the acting minion is not locked).
[TEM] Usable by a ready, unlocked vampire even though there is no action. Cancel a non-out-of-turn master card as it is played during any other Methuselah's master phase (no cost is paid). The Methuselah who played that card gains another master phase action.
Artist: Andrew Trabbold


EDIT: Usual caveat of old rules and not up to date commentary by me applies, I'm sure if there's something wrong here, it will be corrected accordingly.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 06 Jun 2020 23:27 by Kilrauko. Reason: Corrected [ pre ] formatting on the Rewind time card text to not break post, added caveat.
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07 Jun 2020 08:57 #100040 by Hakuron
»You cannot attempt [to do] what you cannot do.«
Convinces me, thanks.


I guess I got irritated by the different wordings of cards and wondered if there would be any difference in semantics (= game effect):

Daring the Dawn reads: "Vampires cannot block this action."
Seduction reads: "The chosen vampire cannot block this action."
Nakhthorheb reads: "Minions with your corruption counters cannot block him."

Toreador Grand Ball reads: "The first Toreador's non-bleed actions cannot be blocked."
Eyes of the Serpent (inf) reads: "This acting minion cannot be blocked by allies until the end of this action."

Horrific Countenance reads: "Unlock the blocking minion. This action is not blocked, and it is now unblockable."
Mantle of the Moon reads: "This action is unblockable."
Sunrise Service reads: "You may burn this card when this vampire declares an action to make that action unblockable."

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12 Jun 2020 08:09 - 12 Jun 2020 08:10 #100077 by Bloodartist

I guess I got irritated by the different wordings of cards and wondered if there would be any difference in semantics (= game effect):


You and me both. Much of the time VTES does place a big importance on semantics, while at the same time attempting to find new wordings that fix issues and work the same as before. Also during the history of this game, some card designers have chosen slightly different wordings to get slightly different effects (intentionally or unintentionally, I don't know).

It's a mess, and I have very little good to say about it.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 12 Jun 2020 08:10 by Bloodartist.

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12 Jun 2020 10:30 #100078 by Lönkka
And, already during the time of game's second death Pascal and Vincent went through the whole card catalogue and unified all of these.

AFAIK, the wordings will be updated as cards are reprinted.

Which probably will mean that if some wallpaper cards contain different wording than the new/upcoming norm, it is just too bad since there is little point in reprinting drivel...

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12 Jun 2020 19:04 #100081 by Sambomb
Maybe we can merge all similar effects to "Unblockable"

Daring the Dawn reads: "This action is unblockable"
Seduction reads: "This action is unblockable by the chosen vampire."
Nakhthorheb reads: "This action is unblockable by minions with your corruption counters."

Toreador Grand Ball reads: "The first Toreador's non-bleed actions action is unblockable."
Eyes of the Serpent (inf) reads: "This action is unblockable by allies."

Horrific Countenance reads: "Unlock the blocking minion. This action is not blocked, and this action is unblockable."
Mantle of the Moon reads: "This action is unblockable."
Sunrise Service reads: "You may burn this card when this vampire declares an action to make that action unblockable."

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