question-circle Passing the turn at the last second of the game

22 Oct 2020 21:16 #100965 by jaakkon
We had an interesting case in a semi-casual league game with a two-hour time limit. I bet there's been a precedent at tournaments, as tournament games sometimes time out, but we couldn't find any at the situation.

Let's say we have
  • Player A with two Anarch Revolts at the table.
  • Player B has 2 pool, no Anarchs or ways of gaining pool in the unlock phase.
  • Player X is actually timing the game with a clock app. They were ousted earlier.

Player A passes their turn after their master phase, without a discard. Player X, seeing the time run out, calls timeout, but there's no audible alarm until in a second.
How would this go in a tournament?
  • Whose turn was it when the game timed out?
  • Does Player B's unlock phase start immediately when player A passes their turn?
  • Or does player B need to acknowledge this somehow?

The tournament rules say

The game will end with the current minion action - if any -, or at the end of the current phase, if the notification didn't happen during the minion phase.

(www.vekn.net/tournament-rules/3-tournament-mechanics section 3.1.1. Round Time Limits)

That implies that if Player B starts their unlock phase before the time runs out, they must finish the phase, meaning they would be ousted.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
23 Oct 2020 06:24 - 23 Oct 2020 06:26 #100967 by Ankha

Player A passes their turn after their master phase, without a discard. Player X, seeing the time run out, calls timeout, but there's no audible alarm until in a second.

That is probably because the timer displays 0 (whole seconds), but there is still a second of game.

How would this go in a tournament?
  1. Whose turn was it when the game timed out?
  2. Does Player B's unlock phase start immediately when player A passes their turn?
  3. Or does player B need to acknowledge this somehow?

1- if the player has ended their turn, the next player's
2- precisely: B's unlock phase starts immediately after A's turn is ended (there is no "in between" turns, even though many years ago it was the case)
3- B has to pass the impulse because B can play effects during A's turn, such as using a Barrens during B's discard phase.

The tournament rules say

The game will end with the current minion action - if any -, or at the end of the current phase, if the notification didn't happen during the minion phase.

(www.vekn.net/tournament-rules/3-tournament-mechanics section 3.1.1. Round Time Limits)

That implies that if Player B starts their unlock phase before the time runs out, they must finish the phase, meaning they would be ousted.

Correct.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 23 Oct 2020 06:26 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka, jaakkon

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
23 Oct 2020 07:53 #100968 by Timo

3- B has to pass the impulse because B can play effects during A's turn, such as using a Barrens during B's discard phase.


Does it means that if B (or anyone else) has any effect playable during player's A discard phase, they could decide to use it and then impulse would go back to player A who would have to pass again which would gain easily 5 seconds of game ?
(I am pretty sure this is legal).

But now, how should we handle the following situation :

5 seconds are left in the game.

Player A states "end of turn" which basically means "I pass the impulse".
Nobody on the table has anything that could be used during A's turn (Barrens or the like).
Player B would be ousted if his turn begins says
"I pass the impulse."
And then ask every other players still in the game :
"do you pass ?"

And technically, the turn would ends only when everyone has "passed" and when the timer rings with 1 or 2 players not having stated they have passed Player B is not ousted.

As a judge, I would handle that this is clearly stalling and would result in additional time to reach B turn.

And now, the in between situation :
For further shenanigans, let's say this is the final of a tournament and B is first seed and nobody was ousted until now.

And player D has a barrens in play.

B specifically asks player D if he wants to use his barrens.

This could be a legitimate question because D could draw a life boon which could effectively give him the Tournament win.

And here, I think we have the easy situation :
- D effectively use his barrens and pass and player A don't have the time to pass again : B win

Or the not so easy situation :
- D knows he doesn't have anything in his deck that could possibly change the state of the game and pass without doing anything but the few seconds lost prevent E to pass before the timer rings.
In this situation, B is not really stalling because the state of the game could have effectively changed.

So how should we rule this situation ?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
23 Oct 2020 09:04 #100969 by Ankha

3- B has to pass the impulse because B can play effects during A's turn, such as using a Barrens during B's discard phase.


Does it means that if B (or anyone else) has any effect playable during player's A discard phase, they could decide to use it and then impulse would go back to player A who would have to pass again

Yes

which would gain easily 5 seconds of game ?

That would be the consequence of it.

Player A states "end of turn" which basically means "I pass the impulse".
Nobody on the table has anything that could be used during A's turn (Barrens or the like).

Player B would be ousted if his turn begins says
"I pass the impulse."
And then ask every other players still in the game :
"do you pass ?"

And technically, the turn would ends only when everyone has "passed" and when the timer rings with 1 or 2 players not having stated they have passed Player B is not ousted.

As a judge, I would handle that this is clearly stalling and would result in additional time to reach B turn.

Probably, provided that players know the time left.

There's also the reverse situation: a player needs to take 1 action to win the game, but the other player takes to long to end his turn, for instance by dropping cards while discarding ;)

And now, the in between situation :
For further shenanigans, let's say this is the final of a tournament and B is first seed and nobody was ousted until now.

And player D has a barrens in play.

B specifically asks player D if he wants to use his barrens.

This could be a legitimate question because D could draw a life boon which could effectively give him the Tournament win.

And here, I think we have the easy situation :
- D effectively use his barrens and pass and player A don't have the time to pass again : B win

Sure.

Or the not so easy situation :
- D knows he doesn't have anything in his deck that could possibly change the state of the game and pass without doing anything but the few seconds lost prevent E to pass before the timer rings.
In this situation, B is not really stalling because the state of the game could have effectively changed.

So how should we rule this situation ?

The judge can't know for certain that D knows that. D may even have forgotten the precise content of their deck due to the stress of the end game and uses the Barrens to see if something is coming (better safe than sorry).

Stalling is losing time on purpose, so the judge has to be sure it is the case (not an easy task).

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
23 Oct 2020 09:21 #100970 by Timo

Or the not so easy situation :
- D knows he doesn't have anything in his deck that could possibly change the state of the game and pass without doing anything but the few seconds lost prevent E to pass before the timer rings.
In this situation, B is not really stalling because the state of the game could have effectively changed.

So how should we rule this situation ?

The judge can't know for certain that D knows that. D may even have forgotten the precise content of their deck due to the stress of the end game and uses the Barrens to see if something is coming (better safe than sorry).

Stalling is losing time on purpose, so the judge has to be sure it is the case (not an easy task).


If D effectively uses his barrens (for whatever reason !) I think there is no real doubt that A have to state again that he passes to end his turn.

My question is more that if nobody does anything except B asking everybody if they want to use the impulse and nobody does but the timer rings during that time we are in the "technicals" here and nobody having done anything with the impulse, could it be ruled that the turn effectively ended when A said "end of turn" 5 seconds ago ?

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
23 Oct 2020 11:48 #100971 by Ankha

My question is more that if nobody does anything except B asking everybody if they want to use the impulse and nobody does but the timer rings during that time we are in the "technicals" here and nobody having done anything with the impulse, could it be ruled that the turn effectively ended when A said "end of turn" 5 seconds ago ?

It sounds reasonable. If D says: "wait, I was thinking about using the Barrens" this will probably be seen as bad faith and a way to stall retroactively.
But it really depends on how much time has elapsed between A saying "end ot turn" and the end of the time, as well as on the context, so there's no absolute rule here.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.127 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum