file Necrosis and target vitals

29 Dec 2020 11:06 - 29 Dec 2020 11:13 #101318 by Bloodartist

So if dodge works against necrosis environmental damage, that implies that the environmental damage is dealt by the strike.

Correct, but it does not mean that the damage is dealt by the minion. That is the case for the extra damage from Necrosis that is "environmental" (not dealt by the minion).


Which is why I brought this whole thing up, since target vitals doesn't care about the minion OR the card. It only cares whether damage comes from the strike. Dodge uses literally same wording in the rulebook (it only uses the word 'strike').

So if dodge can avoid the environmental part, that implies that the environmental damage comes from the strike. If damage comes from the strike, it should trigger target vitals.

I still see only two logical options:
Either dodge works against the entire strike and target vitals triggers off the environmental part,

OR the environmental part cannot be dodged (since its not part of the strike).

The latter part would make sense considering there is a rule in the rulebook that says that environmental damage cannot be dodged. That would be less confusing, considering the rarity of environmental damage in the first place.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 29 Dec 2020 11:13 by Bloodartist.

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30 Dec 2020 10:15 - 30 Dec 2020 10:16 #101328 by lip
Replied by lip on topic Necrosis and target vitals
I think you make good points, but I do not think we should change the way Dodge interacts with Necrosis. I would like to try and provide a way out that makes everybody happy.

Dodge avoids both minion and environmental damage from Necrosis. @Ankha's answer on that is clear to me and I don't think it deserves further debate.

When it comes to Target Vitals, although I agree with the result, I disagree with @Ankha's explanation:

The environmental damage is an effect of the strike. However, it is not inflicted by the striking minion when the strike resolves, that is why it is not increased by the Target Vitals.


As you point out @Bloodartist, per card text, Target Vitals does not care if the damage is inflicted by the minion or not, just that it is inflicted by the strike. Still, Target Vitals card text does not suggest it can apply twice on a single strike. The wording "If any damage [...] is successfully inflicted" does not mean "each time damage is inflicted". For sure, this deserves a confirmation: not many strikes apply damage in two separate steps.

Let me submit another scenario to @Ankha as a new year's gift (maybe that should get a separate thread but, eh, we're here):
  • Vampire A plays Necrosis with Target Vitals
  • Vampire B plays Soak at strike resolution and prevents all damage
  • Vampire B still takes 1 environmental damage during the press step
Question: Does Vampire B take +2 environmental damage during the press step?

I will advocate that he does: the environmental damage comes from the strike, and Target Vitals does not care that it does not come from the minion.

But had B not prevented the initial damage, Target Vitals would have applied at strike resolution, and would not have applied for the environmental damage during the press step (it applies only once per strike).

What do you think?

Necrosis


Target Vitals


Soak
Last edit: 30 Dec 2020 10:16 by lip. Reason: Typo

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31 Dec 2020 11:56 #101339 by beslin igor
Reading text Target Vitals,you play when chose strike,and you can play in every strike chose,so with blur and when you declare every strike you can play Target Vitals.
Necrosis+Target Vitals inflict 3+2 damage and is resolved during strike resolution.
1 Enviro damage happen during press step and I think Target Vitals have no efect anymore.
Target Vitals is resolved during strike resolution.

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01 Jan 2021 20:31 - 02 Jan 2021 09:25 #101346 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Necrosis and target vitals
Hopefully if this is correct it will explain the reasoning behind the rules/rulings better. After reading this post and the referenced rulings repeatedly i think i have finally gotten to the point where I see the logic behind them all and why it is correctly ruled....taking back my previous stand in this topic regarding the dodging.

Rulebook 6.4.5 says:
Dodge. A dodge strike deals no damage, but it protects the dodging minion and his possessions (cards on him) from the effects of the opposing strike. Retainers are not protected,


The effects encompasses all of what the strike triggers which causes harm (damage, destruction or stealing of equipment etc.) and thereby it is logical that the dodge protects against a strikes environmental damage effect as well (like it would against for ex. a destroy equipment effect and the likes). In the case of Necrosis as it is triggered from the strike and it is a harmful effect makes it dodge-able. The confusion is easily made as one has always gone by "the universal truth" that environmental damage isn´t dodge-able, which is correct with the "damage" being the keyword here, but that doesn´t apply if the environmental damage is sourced as an effect of a strike as the dodge is not protecting against the damage but against the "harmful effect". Would be good to further clarify this in the rules and re-write the entire section about environmental damage to reflect the difference better.

In terms of Target Vitals in relation to Dagon´s Call/Necrosis and Catatonic Fear

Card text says:
Name: Target Vitals
[LotN:U, HttB:PSal3, Anthology:3, SP:PwN3]
Cardtype: Combat
Aim. Only usable as this minion chooses a strike. A minion can play only one aim each strike.
If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, they take +2 damage from this strike, and they cannot press this round. They can discard two combat cards to cancel this card as it is played.
Artist: Imaginary Friends Studios; Javier Santos; Imaginary Friends Studios

Name: Dagon's Call
[FN:C2/PA2, POD:DTC]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Quietus
A vampire can play only one Dagon's Call each combat.
[qui] Strike: hand strike, and the opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable environmental damage during the press step each round this combat (only effective if this strike was made at close range).
[QUI] As above, and this hand strike is at +1 damage.
Artist: Durwin Talon

Name: Necrosis
[LK:4]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Thanatosis/Potence
[pot] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
[thn] Strike: hand strike at +2 damage.
[THN] As [thn] above, and the opposing vampire takes 1 unpreventable environmental damage during the press step this round (only effective if this strike was made at close range).
Artist: Javier Santos

Name: Catatonic Fear
[Sabbat:U, SW:U, FN:PS, CE:PTo, LoB:PI2, Third:U]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Presence
(pre] Strike: combat ends.
(PRE] As above, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close.
Artist: Clint Langley

LSJ wrote:
There may be a wording which makes it a delayed effect, sure.
But that would be pointless for an effect whose "delay time" is zero.

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/QreZ7T6AXxo/m/xISb0iogFgkJ



Target Vitals don´t apply on Dagon´s Call and Necrosis environmental damage because it is only triggered as an effect of the strike but not actually dealt/inflicted by the strike. Note the wording of the cards that say that "and the opposing X takes...environmental damage...", making it that the damage is not dealt/inflicted by the strike.
In the case of Catatonic Fear the wording is "and inflict...", making it that the damage is dealt/inflicted by the strike and therefore Target Vitals is applicable. When in the resolution of combat the damage is dealt/inflicted doesn´t matter to Target Vitals and as per LSJ the effects of a strike resolve where there is zero delay. What does matter to Target Vitals to make it applicable is that the damage must be dealt/inflicted by the strike.

lip wrote:
Question: Does Vampire B take +2 environmental damage during the press step?


No it doesn´t because the environmental damage from Dagon´s Call/Necrosis is not increasable by Target Vitals and therefore it only takes 1 environmental damage as stated in the card text.
The example given would result in Vampire B getting 1 environmental damage, the strike does 0 damage (1 damage "default damage" +2 damage from the superior Necrosis strike = 3 damage, which then Is all prevented by the superior Soak, this means that the +2 damage from Target Vitals aren’t applicable anymore) and 1 environmental damage.
Last edit: 02 Jan 2021 09:25 by inm8.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Ankha, ruiza97, beslin igor, lip, Khormag

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02 Jan 2021 09:19 - 02 Jan 2021 09:25 #101348 by lip
Replied by lip on topic Necrosis and target vitals
Oh, thanks inm8, that's a pretty neat explanation for the rulings ☺︎

I was swayed by Bloodartist's comments, but my bad for not reading thoroughly the LSJ links Ankha provided in the first place - it's clear to me now ☺︎
Last edit: 02 Jan 2021 09:25 by lip.
The following user(s) said Thank You: inm8

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02 Jan 2021 09:29 - 02 Jan 2021 21:48 #101349 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Necrosis and target vitals
Happy to be able to help.
Last edit: 02 Jan 2021 21:48 by inm8.

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