file Vote from political action card

19 Sep 2021 07:58 - 19 Sep 2021 07:58 #103168 by Ankha

So, I'm really trying to understand the term "abstain." It seems like "abstain" means "must not cast votes,"

No, there is no notion of obligation ("must") in the term abstain.

"must not cast votes" would be "must abstain".

Abstaining is just "not casting any votes or ballots".

rather than "chooses not to vote." Vampires in topor, vampires who participated in a tied Prisci sub-referendum, and vampires where card text forces abstaining are the only instances of "abstaining" that can happen in the game.

Vampires who cast ballots in a Prisci sub-referendum did not abstain, even if there is a tie.
Vampires in torpor cannot cast votes or ballots. That's why they are abstaining (by definition).

Thus, Methuselahs are not able to "abstain" (ie, the concept of forcing methuselahs to not cast gained votes doesn't exist in the game). Do I have this correct?

No. A Methuselah who has not cast any votes is abstaining (until they cast their votes, if they choose to).

My original question stems from the card text on Kindred Coercion: 

"The affected vampires may choose to abstain if they have not already cast their votes and ballots"

This text led to discussion about whether a Methuselah (rather than a vampire) can choose to formally "abstain" instead of simply choosing not to vote.

It's the same, by definition.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 19 Sep 2021 07:58 by Ankha.

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19 Sep 2021 08:03 #103169 by Ankha

Followup question:
Can a methusalem allocate their "personal votes" per source, or must a methusalems votes be cast all ot once, like votes of a vampire can not be split?

Methuselahs can use each of their vote sources as they see fit. They could for instance burn the Edge to get 1 vote in favor, and discard a political action card to get 1 vote against.

They can also burn the Edge or discard a political action card to get a vote, and not cast it at all.

Basically, Methuselahs can do whatever they want with their vote sources (vampires, vote from the political action used to call the referendum etc.), but if they use a source, all the votes (or ballots) provided by that single source must be used "in favor" or "against". That's why a vampire cannot cast 2 votes from their Prince title in favor, and 4 additional votes from a Betwitching Oration against, since it's the same source of votes (the vampire).

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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19 Sep 2021 10:15 - 19 Sep 2021 10:17 #103174 by TwoRazorReign

So, I'm really trying to understand the term "abstain." It seems like "abstain" means "must not cast votes,"

No, there is no notion of obligation ("must") in the term abstain.

"must not cast votes" would be "must abstain".

Abstaining is just "not casting any votes or ballots".

rather than "chooses not to vote." Vampires in topor, vampires who participated in a tied Prisci sub-referendum, and vampires where card text forces abstaining are the only instances of "abstaining" that can happen in the game.

Vampires who cast ballots in a Prisci sub-referendum did not abstain, even if there is a tie.
Vampires in torpor cannot cast votes or ballots. That's why they are abstaining (by definition).

Thus, Methuselahs are not able to "abstain" (ie, the concept of forcing methuselahs to not cast gained votes doesn't exist in the game). Do I have this correct?

No. A Methuselah who has not cast any votes is abstaining (until they cast their votes, if they choose to).

My original question stems from the card text on Kindred Coercion: 

"The affected vampires may choose to abstain if they have not already cast their votes and ballots"

This text led to discussion about whether a Methuselah (rather than a vampire) can choose to formally "abstain" instead of simply choosing not to vote.

It's the same, by definition.

 

The argument my group was making is methuselahs can't abstain because there's no mention of methuselahs abstaining in the rulebook. They choose not to vote. You're saying this is the same thing, and I understand that, but the rulebook is leading to confusion among my group because it seems to make a distinction. And before you reply saying no distinction is made, the argument I am hearing when I tell my group that there is no distinction is, yes, there is a distinction because only vampires "abstain" and Methuselahs "choose not to vote", per the rule book. Hence, the rulebook is unclear on this point. 
Last edit: 19 Sep 2021 10:17 by TwoRazorReign.

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