question-circle Ordering stealing blood effects

05 Jun 2022 11:40 #105398 by lip
We dived into an interesting discussion among rule mongers the other day, about Steal Blood effects. We gathered the following and would like to expose it and (who knows) maybe get an explanation or confirmation from our beloved RD.

  1. If acting vampire A (5/6 blood) is in combat with vampire B (0/6 blood) and both play Theft of Vitae at superior, A steals no blood while B steals 2: strike resolution is simultaneous, A cannot wait for B to steal first to steal their blood back. [LSJ 20041027]
  2. But if acting vampire A plays Darkness Within on top of it, they can order its effect after resolving the strikes, stealing back 1 of the blood B has taken. [LSJ 20020301]

To be fair, the discrepancy makes sense: when 2 opponents both play Theft of Vitae, you wouldn't want the acting to get an unfair advantage, and the symmetry of resolution is nice. But for Darkness Within, you have to be able to decide on an order, because if there is not enough blood it has to be either stolen directly from Theft of Vitae or stolen in a delayed fashion by Darkness Within: it cannot be both.

As one of us pointed out, that's in fact rather normal in VTES: nothing is really simultaneous: when 2 effects happen "at the same time", there is always the Sequencing rule to decide who goes first, and the "acting Methuselah chooses" principle when the effects are triggered or delayed. The real exception here is, in fact, the exception about how two "Steal Blood" strikes are resolved. The Rulebook states that strikes are resolved simultaneously, but Darkness Within effect happens at the same time (during normal strike resolution) by card text: it is the definition of simultaneity. So why would 2 Theft of Vitae be simultaneous, but not a Theft of Vitae and a Darkness Within? Our only conclusion was that you have to consider that strike effects have a special handling that other effects do not have.

Theft of Vitae

Darkness Within

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05 Jun 2022 19:52 #105400 by thelonius reloaded
Theft of Vitae is a strike, therefore the resolution is strictly defined by the "strikes resolution ladder"

Darkness within states "during strike resolution", so you can basically queue it whenever you like.

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06 Jun 2022 04:20 - 06 Jun 2022 04:27 #105403 by inm8
Effects that resolve "during normal strike resolution" (Darkness Within) and strike effects (Theft of Vitae) all resolve in the same timing window i.e. strike resolution window.

The rulebook only mentions that "strike effects" are resolved simultaneously which would mean that the ordering of the effect from Darkness Within could matter in regards to there being blood available to move or not.

The effects of the strikes from both minions are resolved simultaneously.

The ruling [LSJ 20020301] tells us that all effects (with exception of Combat End and First Strike) that are to be resolved in the strike resolution window are simultaneous.

It happens simultaneously with other such effects.

Depending on how this is ruled the outcome for the given scenario (A at 5/6 and B at 0/6) could if there is only one round of combat result in either;

1) A at 3 and B at 2 (if all are simultaneous, probably the correct handling) 
or (depending on who gets to order the effects in whose favor)

2a) A at 4 and B at 1 (if only strike effects are simultaneous and DW is ordered after ToV)
2b) A at 3 and B at 2" (if only strike effects are simultaneous and DW is ordered before ToV) 

Regardless of if aligning with LSJ´s ruling or not, there is an ordering of effects that needs to be done, and who gets to choose that order... both of which affect the result.
Most of the time it is more advantageous to handle the ToV first (the blood can be used to mend damage) but there are also cases where it would be beneficial to handle the DW first.
Last edit: 06 Jun 2022 04:27 by inm8. Reason: spelling

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