file Cards attached or under cards being removed from the game

11 Sep 2022 16:09 #106318 by Killiam
The following LSJ ruling has been cited/upheld:

"If a card leaves play, the cards on/under it are burned."
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/6rqhybcysh8/m/hU-qIp2on-YJ

I have heard it argued that there are still cases when cards under/attached will be removed from the game rather than being burned, so for clarification, here are my questions:

1. If a vampire with Inceptor is removed from the game by superior Chair of Hades, where do the cards under Inceptor go (ash heap or removed from game)? Also, where does the Inceptor card itself go?

2. If a vampire with Inceptor changes controllers and then the new controller is ousted, where do the cards under Inceptor (and the Inceptor itself) go? (Assuming that Inceptor was placed on the 1-cap vampire by its original controller, before the change of control)

3. If a vampire steals a piece of equipment from another Methuselah and then that vampire's controller is ousted, where does the equipment card go?

4. If a Methuselah with Brainwashes on their uncontrolled vampires is ousted, where do the Brainwashes go?

Thanks much!


Inceptor
Unique master.
Put this card on a vampire of capacity 1, and put three cards from your hand, ash heap or library on this card, face up but out of play. This vampire may play other copies of these cards as if he or she had the Discipline required (if any) at superior.

Chair of Hades
+1 stealth action.
nec Ⓓ Remove a mortal or ghoul (ally or retainer) from the game.
NEC Ⓓ Remove a non-wraith ally or retainer or a vampire with capacity 2 or less from the game.

Brainwash
Master.
Put this card on an uncontrolled minion in your prey's uncontrolled region. This card remains in play. No transfers can be used to move blood to or from that card. Any minion may burn this card as a +1 stealth Ⓓ action.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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11 Sep 2022 19:49 #106319 by Yomyael
Don't have a explicit ruling for this but from inference from the ruling you cited and game rules I suggest the following results:

1.: Even though the Storage Annex has explicit card text burning the cards when it is burned, the mentioned interaction between moving the Annex to the library will result in the card under it being burned. So it doesn't matter where a card is moved, the cards under it are burned. Banishment has explicit text preventing that when the card is moved to the uncontrolled. So in the case the vampire with Inceptor is removed from play, the Inceptor and all cards are burned.

2.: Inceptor is a master card, therefore it is controlled by the methuselah who played it. If the vampire gets stolen by another methuselah, and that methuselah gets ousted, the cards on that minion that are controlled by other players go to that players ash heap.I think the same would happen for the cards on the Inceptor, since they are on the Inceptor and not the minion.

3.: Library cards are controlled by the methuselah controlling the minion the cards are on. So a stolen equipment would be removed from the game along with all other cards the ousted methuselah controlls.

4.: See 2.

Prince of Bonn, Germany

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11 Sep 2022 20:11 #106320 by Killiam
Yomyael -

I agree with your assessments, but others don't, which is why I am asking for an official ruling from the monger, so that I can use that to enforce the rules during gameplay.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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15 Sep 2022 18:58 #106348 by Killiam
Has anyone on the rules team taken a look here yet?

This continues to be an issue for me. Confession -- I have a deck in which Inceptors remove themselves from the game with Chair of Hades as a means to get cards I want out of the library and into the ash heap for recursion to hand. Some people say the cards should be removed from the game, which seems contrary to the ruling I linked, but they offer (I think invalid/irrelevant) counterarguments. Word from up top could end the arguments and let me continue experimenting with this deck building approach.

Thanks again!

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"How did some slip of a girly boy from communist East Berlin become the internationally ignored song stylist barely standing before you?" -Hedwig Robinson

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15 Sep 2022 21:08 #106350 by kschaefer
No need for a ruling. The rulebook is clear:
When a card is burned or removed from the game, any counters or other cards on it are burned.
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21 Sep 2022 18:53 #106392 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple
Bill, I'm not the rules guy from whom you're seeking confirmation, but here's the way I believe your cases break down.

The following LSJ ruling has been cited/upheld:
"If a card leaves play, the cards on/under it are burned."
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/6rqhybcysh8/m/hU-qIp2on-YJ


Yes, now also codified in Section 3 of the Rulebook:

Burn: When a card is burned, it is placed into its owner’s ash heap (discard pile). The ash heap can be examined by any Methuselah at any time. When a counter is burned, it is returned to the blood bank. Sometimes, an instruction may say to remove a card from the game. While some cards and effects can retrieve cards from the ash heap, cards that are removed from the game cannot be retrieved or affected in any way. When a card is burned or removed from the game, any counters or other cards on it are burned.

I have heard it argued that there are still cases when cards under/attached will be removed from the game rather than being burned, so for clarification, here are my questions:

1. If a vampire with Inceptor is removed from the game by superior Chair of Hades, where do the cards under Inceptor go (ash heap or removed from game)? Also, where does the Inceptor card itself go?


The Section 3 text indicates that the Inceptor card and all cards attached it are burned, going to the your ash heap.

2. If a vampire with Inceptor changes controllers and then the new controller is ousted, where do the cards under Inceptor (and the Inceptor itself) go? (Assuming that Inceptor was placed on the 1-cap vampire by its original controller, before the change of control)


A different rules case, this time interacting with Section 5:

When a Methuselah runs out of pool counters, they are ousted from the game. If you are ousted, all the cards you control are removed from the game. Any of your rivals’ cards you control are returned to them at the end of the game. Any of your cards controlled by other Methuselahs remain in play as normal. The game continues until only one Methuselah is left

The operative phrase determining where things go is "all cards you control." If the ousted player controls the card, Section 5 says remove it from the game. If someone else controls the card, Section 3 says burn it (placing it in the controller's ash heap.)

a) The ousted player controlled the stolen vampire, it is removed from the game when he is ousted per Section 5.
b) All equipment or retainers attached to that vampire are also controlled by the ousted player and are removed from the game with the oust per Section 5 (regardless of who originally played those cards).
c) Any other minion cards placed on the stolen vampire by other players (e.g., Derange) are controlled by the ousted player unless noted by "you still control this card" text on the minion card (e.g., Creeping Infection). Remove those cards from the game too.
d) You played the Inceptor. Since it is a Master card, you control that card (and cards attached to it) even while it's on a minion controlled by another player. When that player is ousted, Inceptor and all cards attached to it (which you control) are placed in your ash heap by Section 3.

The same thing would happen with a Fame you dropped on the Inceptor after it was stolen, or any Discipline card a random player threw on the 1-cap crosstable....it should be placed in ash heap of the player who played then as the oust is handled, they controlled their Master cards when the 1-cap was removed from the game (Section 3).

3. If a vampire steals a piece of equipment from another Methuselah and then that vampire's controller is ousted, where does the equipment card go?


The stolen equipment is controlled by the ousted player from the moment he successfully stole it. Per section 5, it is removed from the game.

The same thing happens with cards that "rotate" into a player's space with automatic change of control (e.g., Admonitions, Scourge of the Enochians) and they are ousted with control of the card. If it's controlled by the now-defunct player, remove it from the game when the oust occurs.

4. If a Methuselah with Brainwashes on their uncontrolled vampires is ousted, where do the Brainwashes go?


The player who played Brainwash always controls it, barring some really strange situations. It is placed in the ash heap of the player who played it when the Brainwash target is removed from the game, per section 3.
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