file Death Seeker + Rötschreck

07 Apr 2023 09:38 #107805 by Edgecrusher44
Hola,

Tengo una duda: ¿se puede utilizar un Death Seeker para cancelar una carta de combate que haga agravado cuando se juega junto a un Rötschreck (Ej: Breath of the dragon + Rötschreck)?

Name: Rötschreck
[Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG, BH:PTr2, KMW:PB, LoB:PA, Third:PTz]
Cardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. During this vampire's next unlock phase, burn this card.

Name: Death Seeker
[HttB:C/B2/PSal2]
Cardtype: Combat
Clan: Salubri antitribu
Cost: 1 blood
A vampire can play only one Death Seeker each round.
Cancel a combat card played by the opposing minion as it is played, and its cost is not paid.
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07 Apr 2023 11:48 #107807 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Death Seeker + Rötschreck

Hola,

Tengo una duda: ¿se puede utilizar un Death Seeker para cancelar una carta de combate que haga agravado cuando se juega junto a un Rötschreck (Ej: Breath of the dragon + Rötschreck)?

Name: Rötschreck
[Jyhad:U, CE:U, Anarchs:PG, BH:PTr2, KMW:PB, LoB:PA, Third:PTz]
Cardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. During this vampire's next unlock phase, burn this card.

Name: Death Seeker
[HttB:C/B2/PSal2]
Cardtype: Combat
Clan: Salubri antitribu
Cost: 1 blood
A vampire can play only one Death Seeker each round.
Cancel a combat card played by the opposing minion as it is played, and its cost is not paid.


Google translate quote;

Hello,

I have a question: can a Death Seeker be used to cancel a combat card that makes aggravated when played together with a Rötschreck (Ex: Breath of the dragon + Rötschreck)?


Yes. And there is nothing to play Rötschreck on (unless replacement agg source is found.)

Long answer.

You're asking whether or not Death Seeker can cancel a combat card dealing aggravated damage that is then followed by Rötschreck. The answer is yes, as Death Seeker is played when the opposing combat card is played (per card text) and per rules on cancelling cards

Some effects can cancel a card “as it is played.” These effects, as well as wake effects, are the only effects allowed during the “as played” time period of another card. Even drawing to replace cards, comes after this time period.


Thus as the combat card dealing aggravated damage is cancelled it has no effect per the rules

“Cancel a card”: A cancelled card has no effect, but it is still considered played.

If an action card is cancelled, the minion does not lock (they do not pay for the action card), and can play the same action card again.

If a non-action card is cancelled, its cost should be paid as normal.

If a combat card used for a strike is cancelled, the minion who played it must choose a strike which may come from another strike card.


Therefore there has been no aggravated damage attempts as the card did not resolve. The order is as follows;
1) Methuselah A strikes Breath of the dragon.
2) Cancel window for all Meths, Direct Interventions etc etc. Follow impulse for order.
3) If not cancelled, resolve and replace Breath of the Dragon.
4) Rötschreck.
5) Cancel window for all Meths, Suddens etc etc.
6) If not cancelled, resolve and replace Rötschreck.

Hope this helped.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
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08 Apr 2023 08:45 - 08 Apr 2023 08:46 #107811 by Edgecrusher44
Hi,

Thanks for answering my question. :) !

It is much clear right now but i have a new doubt: When the Death seeker cancels the combant card which deals the agg damage, can you play another card, diferent from the first, which also deals agg damage to make the Rötschreck works?

Ej:
1) Methuselah A strikes Breath of the dragon.
2) Methuselah B cancels the Breath of the dragon
3) Methuselah B plays Body Arsenal (assuming the combat is at close range)
4) Rötschreck.
5) Methuselah A´s vampire is sent to torpor

Name: Body Arsenal
[Sabbat:C, SW:PT2, Third:PTz4/SKTz3, POD:DTC]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Vicissitude
[vic] Damage from this vampire's hand strikes is aggravated this round.
[VIC] As above, and this vampire gets +1 strength this combat.
Artist: Mark Tedin
Last edit: 08 Apr 2023 08:46 by Edgecrusher44.
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08 Apr 2023 12:57 #107812 by mondragon
You can cancel the combat card as it is played. You choose to do it or not before you know if rotsreck will be played.

If you choose cancel, then rotsreck cant be played (without another source of aggravated damage other than canceled card)

If you choose not cancel and then other player choose to play rotsreck, at this moment you arent allowed to cancel the combat card, because its too late.
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08 Apr 2023 13:28 #107813 by Kilrauko
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Death Seeker + Rötschreck

Hi,

Thanks for answering my question. :) !

It is much clear right now but i have a new doubt: When the Death seeker cancels the combant card which deals the agg damage, can you play another card, diferent from the first, which also deals agg damage to make the Rötschreck works?

Ej:
1) Methuselah A strikes Breath of the dragon.
2) Methuselah B cancels the Breath of the dragon
3) Methuselah B plays Body Arsenal (assuming the combat is at close range)
4) Rötschreck.
5) Methuselah A´s vampire is sent to torpor

Name: Body Arsenal
[Sabbat:C, SW:PT2, Third:PTz4/SKTz3, POD:DTC]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 2 blood
Discipline: Vicissitude
[vic] Damage from this vampire's hand strikes is aggravated this round.
[VIC] As above, and this vampire gets +1 strength this combat.
Artist: Mark Tedin


Yes.

Longer.

“Cancel a card”: A cancelled card has no effect, but it is still considered played.
...
If a combat card used for a strike is cancelled, the minion who played it must choose a strike which may come from another strike card.


As Rötschreck is only played after a succesful attemp is at play (meaning the aggravated damage can reach the opposing vampire, without accounting for prevent, no short range strikes to long etc.) per the rules of cancelling strike cards in combat, the striking vampire chooses another strike. Unless the source of aggravated damage says "... can play only one x each y..." they can even play another copy of same card. Or choose in your case the body arsenal.

If the card has "... can play only one x each y..." in it, while the first copy has all but it's name nulled and voided by the cancel, the second copy knows that there's been a card with that name already played during y and thus per "you cannot attempt what you cannot do." it cannot be played. Sword of the Righteousness might be the most common "no agg no röts" when cancelled as it has that clause. Note it's missing from Body Arsenal, BotD etc etc, that's a deliberate design choice on whether or not the card can be played through cancel.
Name: Sword of the Righteous
[BL:C1, LoB:C, HttB:PSal3]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Valeren/Animalism
Only usable before range is determined.
[ani] Choose one of this vampire's melee weapons. For the remainder of combat, this vampire inflicts +1 damage each strike with that weapon. A vampire can play only one Sword of the Righteous each combat.
[val] As [ani] above, and the damage this vampire inflicts with the weapon is aggravated.
[VAL] As [val] above, and this vampire may prevent 1 damage this round.
Artist: Andrew Trabbold

Also note if the Rötschreck is cancelled, via Sudden, Wash etc. the rules have special mentions that prevent the Tzimisce controller from playing a second copy from their hand.

... Regardless of the number of master phase actions you normally have, you cannot play a second out-of-turn master card before your next master phase. You cannot play an out-of-turn master card on your own turn.


Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
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08 Apr 2023 20:33 #107814 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Death Seeker + Rötschreck
I think the mistake comes from the fact that people play both the agg card and Rötschreck at the same time, when in fact they should be played one after the other.
A similar mistake is to play Concealed Weapon and the weapon at the same time. But if one cancels the Concealed Weapon, you don't get that weapon.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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