Unpaid actions are still successful?
21 Apr 2023 15:47 #107887
by Coyote
Unpaid actions are still successful? was created by Coyote
Hello I was checking the general rulings
In
www.vekn.net/general-rulings
says
If a minion cannot pay the entire cost of an action when the action resolves, what cost can be paid is paid, and the action continues with no effect ("fizzles"). It is considered successful.ÂÂ [RTR 20011007]
but in [RTR 20011007] (Link below)
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/GsI1UyH54jU/m/x9LfDZX1vR4J
I dont find any explanation about why it is still successful.
Do I understand that an action is considered successful if is not blocked (except for cases like hunting 0 or bleeding 0) regardless if it took effect or not?
Thanks
In
www.vekn.net/general-rulings
says
If a minion cannot pay the entire cost of an action when the action resolves, what cost can be paid is paid, and the action continues with no effect ("fizzles"). It is considered successful.ÂÂ [RTR 20011007]
but in [RTR 20011007] (Link below)
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/GsI1UyH54jU/m/x9LfDZX1vR4J
I dont find any explanation about why it is still successful.
Do I understand that an action is considered successful if is not blocked (except for cases like hunting 0 or bleeding 0) regardless if it took effect or not?
Thanks
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kilrauko
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21 Apr 2023 16:33 - 21 Apr 2023 16:38 #107888
by Kilrauko
Short.
Action resolving ≠ action succesful.
Long.
As counter intuitive as it might sound, action being succesful or not is entirely related to either card texts (action is unsuccesful etc) or block resolving succesfully.
The following from www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary hopefully helps to clear out the order of operations why this is the case.
Please note the order of operations, first it is determined whether or not the action is succesful, as only succesful actions require their costs to be paid. Then the cost is paid. If for whatever reason the cost cannot be paid, as much as possible is paid and the action does not resolve (fizzles). Naturally the golden rule of cards can override this and sometimes actions continue as if unblocked and so forth, but eventually all actions reach the point where they're either succesful or not. And after that their cost is either paid or not.
Hopefully this helped.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Unpaid actions are still successful?
Hello I was checking the general rulings
In
www.vekn.net/general-rulings
says
If a minion cannot pay the entire cost of an action when the action resolves, what cost can be paid is paid, and the action continues with no effect ("fizzles"). It is considered successful.ÂÂ [RTR 20011007]
but in [RTR 20011007] (Link below)
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/GsI1UyH54jU/m/x9LfDZX1vR4J
I dont find any explanation about why it is still successful.
Do I understand that an action is considered successful if is not blocked (except for cases like hunting 0 or bleeding 0) regardless if it took effect or not?
Thanks
Short.
Action resolving ≠ action succesful.
Long.
As counter intuitive as it might sound, action being succesful or not is entirely related to either card texts (action is unsuccesful etc) or block resolving succesfully.
The following from www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary hopefully helps to clear out the order of operations why this is the case.
Complete action.
If the action is one that cannot be repeated (bleed, political action, action card, or card in play), the acting minion now becomes unable to perform this action again this turn. [6.1.1][6.1.6][6.1.7]
If action was not blocked, then the action is successful. [6.2.3]
Pay cost of the action.
Resolve action.
If action was blocked, the action is unsuccessful and blocked. [6.2.3]
The cost of the action is not paid. The action card, if any, is burned.
Lock blocking minion.
If the acting minion was acting from the ready region, he enters combat with the blocking minion (VI)
If the acting minion was acting from torpor and the blocking minion is a vampire, the blocker may diablerize the acting vampire. (VIII) [6.5.2]
Please note the order of operations, first it is determined whether or not the action is succesful, as only succesful actions require their costs to be paid. Then the cost is paid. If for whatever reason the cost cannot be paid, as much as possible is paid and the action does not resolve (fizzles). Naturally the golden rule of cards can override this and sometimes actions continue as if unblocked and so forth, but eventually all actions reach the point where they're either succesful or not. And after that their cost is either paid or not.
Hopefully this helped.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 21 Apr 2023 16:38 by Kilrauko. Reason: ≠
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21 Apr 2023 21:40 #107890
by Coyote
Replied by Coyote on topic Unpaid actions are still successful?
Thanks.
Now I have a doubt
An action bleed of 0 is a successful action, although an unsuccessful bleed?
An action hunt of 0 is a successful action, although an unsuccessful hunt?
Are they different things?
Now I have a doubt
An action bleed of 0 is a successful action, although an unsuccessful bleed?
An action hunt of 0 is a successful action, although an unsuccessful hunt?
Are they different things?
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kilrauko
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22 Apr 2023 14:02 #107898
by Kilrauko
Yes. I'll use the example with Elder Impersonation, Spying Mission, Perfectionist, Freak Drive, Foul blood and Anarch Free Press along with Zephyr + Hungry Coyote to highlight a sequence that could happen during a game.
If you just wish to see LSJ quote and ruling from 2001, here; groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/3pL-u_6-Epc/m/CT_CQMHW-s0J
Similar logic goes for the Hunt as has been highlighted in the RTR 11/05/2018 , I'll quote;
Now the long ballet between Vampire A and B.
Vampire A with 1 blood can bleed for 1, there is no successful block by Vampire B due to A playing superior Elder Impersonation putting them at 0 blood, as there is no other blockers or redirects the action is successful.
Vampire A then plays superior Spying mission as the bleed would be successful.
If the Vampire A earlier already had one or more superior spying missions from previous turns, they can choose the order of operations during the "if a bleed would be succesful" to play another Spying Mission to change succesful bleed to unsuccesful, thus preventing the previous spying missions on the minion from burning for +2 bleed each.
Now the action is successful but the bleed is unsuccessful. Vampire A can follow with Perfectionist to gain 1 blood as no reaction cards were played even when there was block attempt to be at 1 blood.
And then unlock with inferior Freak Drive regardless whether or not the bleed was successful (as the action was).
Please note how they cannot follow with Zephyr despite somewhat similar premise as wording and design intent in Zephyr looks for unsuccessful action, not bleed (or hunt or anything else.)
Now Vampire A is unlocked and at zero blood, they must hunt. Their default hunt is for 1 and there are no blocks. Action is successful and the hunt would be as well. However the Vampire B plays superior Foul Blood, giving Vampire A a hunt for zero (1-1) resulting in unsuccesful hunt that is then followed with 1 unpreventable damage that torpors Vampire A from zero blood.
Vampire A's methuselah cannot lock their Anarch Free Press before Foul Blood's unpreventable environmental damage is done, as while the action was successful (despite Vampire A ending in torpor) their hunt was not.
Now if Vampire A had been a Sabbat and their owner had Hungry Coyote in play, the hunt would be succesful for 1 (1+1-1) where the following 1 unpreventable damage just takes Vampire A to 0 blood. Note how design intent and order of operations can drastically change outcomes from seemingly similar situations.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Unpaid actions are still successful?
Thanks.
Now I have a doubt
An action bleed of 0 is a successful action, although an unsuccessful bleed?
An action hunt of 0 is a successful action, although an unsuccessful hunt?
Are they different things?
Yes. I'll use the example with Elder Impersonation, Spying Mission, Perfectionist, Freak Drive, Foul blood and Anarch Free Press along with Zephyr + Hungry Coyote to highlight a sequence that could happen during a game.
If you just wish to see LSJ quote and ruling from 2001, here; groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/3pL-u_6-Epc/m/CT_CQMHW-s0J
> >The Superior Spying Mission effect says it is used "if a bleed is
> >sucessful". Does a Methuselah using superior Spying Mission still get
> >the Edge, even though no pool is lost?
>
> Short answer: No.
>
> Long answer: Superior SM is played when a bleed would have been
> successful.
> Playing SM makes it an unsuccessful bleed (bleeds for 0 or less are
> not considered successful, and do not therefore garner the Edge).
Correct [6.1.1]
> Note that
> the action itself is successful, for cards that care about such things
> (inferior Freak Drive, Blood of the Sabbat, et alia).
Correct.
Similar logic goes for the Hunt as has been highlighted in the RTR 11/05/2018 , I'll quote;
Rule change #2: Hunt
...
Some cards also reduce the amount of blood gained by a hunt (-X hunt). A hunt is not successful if the amount of blood gained is 0 or less (but the hunt action can still be successful), the same way as bleed works.
Now the long ballet between Vampire A and B.
Vampire A with 1 blood can bleed for 1, there is no successful block by Vampire B due to A playing superior Elder Impersonation putting them at 0 blood, as there is no other blockers or redirects the action is successful.
Name: Elder Impersonation
[AH:C2, FN:PS, CE:C/PM2, BH:PN2, KMW:PB2, Third:C/PM2/SKM1, FB:PM3, NB:PM2]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] +1 stealth.
[OBF] Only usable if a minion attempts to block. That attempt fails and the blocking minion cannot attempt to block this action again.
Artist: Steve CasperVampire A then plays superior Spying mission as the bleed would be successful.
Name: Spying Mission
[Jyhad:U, VTES:U, CE:PM5/PN3, KMW:PB2, Third:U, LotN:PS2, KoT:U/PM4, V5:PM4, V5A:PMin4, NB:PN1]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
[obf] +1 stealth.
[OBF] Only usable if a bleed would be successful. Instead, the bleed burns no pool, is unsuccessful, and this card is put on this vampire. The next time this vampire is about to successfully bleed the same Methuselah, burn this card and this vampire gets +2 bleed.
Artist: Jeff Menges; Julie Collins; Ginés QuiñoneroIf the Vampire A earlier already had one or more superior spying missions from previous turns, they can choose the order of operations during the "if a bleed would be succesful" to play another Spying Mission to change succesful bleed to unsuccesful, thus preventing the previous spying missions on the minion from burning for +2 bleed each.
Now the action is successful but the bleed is unsuccessful. Vampire A can follow with Perfectionist to gain 1 blood as no reaction cards were played even when there was block attempt to be at 1 blood.
Name: Perfectionist
[Gehenna:C, KoT:C, SP:LB2]
Cardtype: Master
Archetype.
Put this card on a vampire you control. Once each turn, this vampire can gain 1 blood after performing a successful action during which no reaction cards are played. A vampire can have only one archetype.
Artist: Ken Meyer, Jr.And then unlock with inferior Freak Drive regardless whether or not the bleed was successful (as the action was).
Name: Freak Drive
[Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, CE:U/PV2, Anarchs:PG, LoB:PA2, Third:U, LotN:PR, KoT:PV3, HttB:PSam2, 25th:3, V5:PV6, NB:PV5]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Fortitude
Only usable after action resolution.
[for] Only usable if the action was successful. Unlock this vampire.
[FOR] Only usable if the action was blocked. Unlock this vampire.
Artist: Daniel Gelon; Nilson; Ken Meyer, Jr.Please note how they cannot follow with Zephyr despite somewhat similar premise as wording and design intent in Zephyr looks for unsuccessful action, not bleed (or hunt or anything else.)
Name: Zephyr
[TU:C/A2, Anthology:4]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Celerity
Only usable after resolution of an unsuccessful action.
[cel] Unlock this vampire at the end of the turn.
[CEL] Unlock this vampire.
Artist: Javier SantosNow Vampire A is unlocked and at zero blood, they must hunt. Their default hunt is for 1 and there are no blocks. Action is successful and the hunt would be as well. However the Vampire B plays superior Foul Blood, giving Vampire A a hunt for zero (1-1) resulting in unsuccesful hunt that is then followed with 1 unpreventable damage that torpors Vampire A from zero blood.
Name: Foul Blood
[AH:U5, FN:PA, LotN:PA2, POD:DTC]
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Quietus
Only usable if a vampire would successfully hunt.
[qui] The acting vampire gets -1 hunt and, after action resolution, takes 1 unpreventable environmental damage. Lock this reacting vampire.
[QUI] As above, but do not lock this reacting vampire.
Artist: Anson Maddocks; Brad WilliamsVampire A's methuselah cannot lock their Anarch Free Press before Foul Blood's unpreventable environmental damage is done, as while the action was successful (despite Vampire A ending in torpor) their hunt was not.
Name: The Anarch Free Press
[Anarchs:C, V5A:PB1]
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Unique. Requires a ready Anarch.
Put this card in play. Lock to give an Anarch you control +1 intercept. Lock after an Anarch successfully hunts to add 1 blood to that Anarch.
Artist: Andrew TrabboldNow if Vampire A had been a Sabbat and their owner had Hungry Coyote in play, the hunt would be succesful for 1 (1+1-1) where the following 1 unpreventable damage just takes Vampire A to 0 blood. Note how design intent and order of operations can drastically change outcomes from seemingly similar situations.
Name: The Hungry Coyote
[Sabbat:R, SW:R, Third:R, SP:LB1]
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 2 pool
Unique location.
Sabbat vampires you control get +1 hunt.
Artist: Mike DringenbergTrust in Jan Pieterzoon.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Coyote
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