Masochism + The Eldest Command Undeath
15 Aug 2023 12:40 - 15 Aug 2023 12:49 #109040
by Poci
Masochism + The Eldest Command Undeath was created by Poci
Hello!
An interesting concept came to me recently and just wanted a clarification on the workings and rulings of these cards together.
- Can I use the rush counters from Masochism in the referendum to pay for the card? If yes, can I use blood and rush counters in any distribution I want?
- Can I burn an older vampire with the vote? The card doesn't specify it, but technically you shouldn't be able to burn more blood than what your vamp's cap is, so older vamps would normally be out of question.
Thanks, in advance!
Masochism
[Fortitude]
+1 stealth action.
[for] Put this card on the acting vampire. Whenever damage is successfully inflicted on this vampire, put 1 rush counter on this card for each point of damage. Remove rush counters in excess of the vampire's capacity. Whenever this vampire plays a card, you may remove X rush counters from this card to reduce that card's blood cost by X.
[FOR] As above, but put an additional rush counter on this card at the end of any round of combat in which this vampire takes damage.
Eldest Command Undeath, The
Requires a Laibon.
Choose a vampire controlled by your prey with capacity less than X. Successful referendum means that vampire is burned. This acting vampire cannot gain blood this action. Any blood he or she gains goes to the blood bank instead.
[Blood Cost] X
An interesting concept came to me recently and just wanted a clarification on the workings and rulings of these cards together.
- Can I use the rush counters from Masochism in the referendum to pay for the card? If yes, can I use blood and rush counters in any distribution I want?
- Can I burn an older vampire with the vote? The card doesn't specify it, but technically you shouldn't be able to burn more blood than what your vamp's cap is, so older vamps would normally be out of question.
Thanks, in advance!
Masochism
[Fortitude]
+1 stealth action.
[for] Put this card on the acting vampire. Whenever damage is successfully inflicted on this vampire, put 1 rush counter on this card for each point of damage. Remove rush counters in excess of the vampire's capacity. Whenever this vampire plays a card, you may remove X rush counters from this card to reduce that card's blood cost by X.
[FOR] As above, but put an additional rush counter on this card at the end of any round of combat in which this vampire takes damage.
Eldest Command Undeath, The
Requires a Laibon.
Choose a vampire controlled by your prey with capacity less than X. Successful referendum means that vampire is burned. This acting vampire cannot gain blood this action. Any blood he or she gains goes to the blood bank instead.
[Blood Cost] X
Last edit: 15 Aug 2023 12:49 by Poci.
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15 Aug 2023 14:42 - 15 Aug 2023 14:44 #109041
by Hakuron
National Coordinator Germany
nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
Replied by Hakuron on topic Masochism + The Eldest Command Undeath
1) No. Burning blood is no "damage inflicted".
2) Only if you managed to put "The Ankara Citadel, Istanbul" on the Laibon taking this political action.
2) Only if you managed to put "The Ankara Citadel, Istanbul" on the Laibon taking this political action.
National Coordinator Germany
nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
Last edit: 15 Aug 2023 14:44 by Hakuron. Reason: Spelling
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15 Aug 2023 15:07 - 15 Aug 2023 15:11 #109042
by Poci
Replied by Poci on topic Masochism + The Eldest Command Undeath
About the 1st point: your answer is how exactly related to the question I asked? You technically stated a fact, it's just not an answer to the question. If I have rush counters already available, that should count as a blood substitute, as far as I can tell, so in-theory I should be able to have a vamps capacity doubled for the consideration of cards requiring blood to play.
If what is say is correct then I can technically have enough resource to burn a higher cap vampire than the one who called the political action, if the card sets no other boundaries, which this card doesn't.
If what is say is correct then I can technically have enough resource to burn a higher cap vampire than the one who called the political action, if the card sets no other boundaries, which this card doesn't.
Last edit: 15 Aug 2023 15:11 by Poci.
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15 Aug 2023 15:22 #109044
by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Masochism + The Eldest Command Undeath
The vote has a cost, so you can use the rush counters to reduce that cost. You may choose to use the rush counters and real blood in any combination.
Nothing prohibits you from having X be larger than the acting vampire's capacity, as long as the action is legal to take when it is announced. Given that, you'd need an effect that will reduce the cost of the action from X to some number that the vampire can actually pay for with its own blood.
That means you have to burn the rush counters when announced because of the text on Masochism (also because there's no way you'd have blood to do this if the target is larger). See also Ravnos Carnival, The Shard, etc. for effects that will reduce costs in this way.
Nothing prohibits you from having X be larger than the acting vampire's capacity, as long as the action is legal to take when it is announced. Given that, you'd need an effect that will reduce the cost of the action from X to some number that the vampire can actually pay for with its own blood.
That means you have to burn the rush counters when announced because of the text on Masochism (also because there's no way you'd have blood to do this if the target is larger). See also Ravnos Carnival, The Shard, etc. for effects that will reduce costs in this way.
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15 Aug 2023 15:35 #109046
by Poci
Replied by Poci on topic Masochism + The Eldest Command Undeath
Oh, okay, that makes sense.
So I can use the rush counters without any problems if the target I call it on is smaller than me and have to burn only if it passes (in whatever distribution of rush or blood I want), but if it's older than the one calling the referendum I cannot 'pre-finance' the cost of the card from rush counters and the action just simply fails because I cannot even call it out to reduce it after (I could only call it if I could theoretically pay the card by myself, by default).
So I can use the rush counters without any problems if the target I call it on is smaller than me and have to burn only if it passes (in whatever distribution of rush or blood I want), but if it's older than the one calling the referendum I cannot 'pre-finance' the cost of the card from rush counters and the action just simply fails because I cannot even call it out to reduce it after (I could only call it if I could theoretically pay the card by myself, by default).
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15 Aug 2023 17:26 #109047
by kschaefer
Replied by kschaefer on topic Masochism + The Eldest Command Undeath
You must always use the rush counters when you announce the action, per card text:
"Whenever this vampire plays a card, you may remove X rush counters from this card to reduce that card's blood cost by X."
This is different than some other cost reduction effects which can be used when it is paid.
"Whenever this vampire plays a card, you may remove X rush counters from this card to reduce that card's blood cost by X."
This is different than some other cost reduction effects which can be used when it is paid.
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