Palying multiples of the same card
05 Aug 2024 14:38 - 05 Aug 2024 18:25 #112265
by yesferatu
Replied by yesferatu on topic Palying multiples of the same card
So, for clarification...
1. If a reaction card (Second Tradition) is cancelled, it is still considered "played" and the cost is still paid, even though the effect is ignored?
"...If a non-action card is cancelled, its cost should be paid as normal."
2. The reacting minion cannot play another copy of that same reaction card, but another minion that player controls could. Cancelled modifiers & reactions are considered played, but unlike cancelled action cards, their cost is paid and they can't be played again on that same action
3. Cancelled action cards, on the other hand, can be played again by the same minion, their cost is not paid and that minion can take the same action again - ignoring NRA rules?
4. What does that mean for actions or modifiers that can only be played once per game?
- If someone cancels a Judgment: Death to the Brujah!, is it still considered played?
- If someone cancels a Giant's Blood, is it still considered played?
- If someone cancels a Strange Day, is it still considered played?
It does seem weird that cancelled actions would basically be ignored, but cancelled modifiers & reactions are still considered "played" and still have a cost. Unless I'm reading that wrong.
1. If a reaction card (Second Tradition) is cancelled, it is still considered "played" and the cost is still paid, even though the effect is ignored?
"...If a non-action card is cancelled, its cost should be paid as normal."
2. The reacting minion cannot play another copy of that same reaction card, but another minion that player controls could. Cancelled modifiers & reactions are considered played, but unlike cancelled action cards, their cost is paid and they can't be played again on that same action
3. Cancelled action cards, on the other hand, can be played again by the same minion, their cost is not paid and that minion can take the same action again - ignoring NRA rules?
4. What does that mean for actions or modifiers that can only be played once per game?
- If someone cancels a Judgment: Death to the Brujah!, is it still considered played?
- If someone cancels a Giant's Blood, is it still considered played?
- If someone cancels a Strange Day, is it still considered played?
It does seem weird that cancelled actions would basically be ignored, but cancelled modifiers & reactions are still considered "played" and still have a cost. Unless I'm reading that wrong.
Last edit: 05 Aug 2024 18:25 by yesferatu.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Kilrauko
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05 Aug 2024 19:34 #112269
by Kilrauko
www.vekn.net/rulebook
1. Yes. That's the rulebook.
2. Yes. That's the rulebook.
3. Yes, it does not violate NRA as no NRA taint has occured yet. That's the rulebook.
Longer ramble to give more context. The Game state remembers that cancelled cards were played, per rulebook. The Next card with restrictions of "only one XYZ can be played in a game" checks if such card has been already played. It has, it was cancelled.
Rules say
The card says only one XYZ can be played in a game. Thus per the card in your hand, you cannot play it as card XYZ has already been played in this game. You cannot even attempt at playing it because, and this is one of my favorite LSJ rulings of all time groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/cHdOwueG71I/m/BTBYvTZhrAUJ
But let's pretend for giggles you could attempt what you could not do and see what the game looks like. You could not add from blood bank to your pool either. But now you suddenly can attempt and it's up to other players to stop you if they wish, after all they could not attempt to interrupt such adds before but now they can. You could not move cards from your ash heap to your hand but now you could attempt to do it. You could not take cards from other methuselahs but now you could attempt to do it...
We play a game with certain rules for reason and that's really it. That's VTES. There's things that happen because they're allowed to happen and there's other things that cannot happen because nothing allows them to happen. And they cannot even be attempted.
As for it all seeming weird that actions are ignored, as you can see, they are not. All are considered played, the difference for costs for cards is that per rulebook, actions are paid only if the action succeeeds and I quote as it also has the action modifiers and reaction cards mentioned;
Now if the card text differs, per Golden rule for Cards card text goes first. Which can lead to quite few "weird" interactions but which still are quite true thanks to the game we play where Cards are rules.
Rules say "reaction cards are always paid when the cards are played ", player cancels superiorreaction with inferiorand suddenly the cost is not paid even when the rules stated otherwise.
Or
Rules say minion cannot play the same action card (unless cancelled) again. But then the cancel is done with inferior
and suddenly per golden rule for cards, they cannot play the same action card as they cannot attempt the same action even when the rulebook says they should.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Palying multiples of the same card
So, for clarification...
1. If a reaction card (Second Tradition) is cancelled, it is still considered "played" and the cost is still paid, even though the effect is ignored?
"...If a non-action card is cancelled, its cost should be paid as normal."
2. The reacting minion cannot play another copy of that same reaction card, but another minion that player controls could. Cancelled modifiers & reactions are considered played, but unlike cancelled action cards, their cost is paid and they can't be played again on that same action
3. Cancelled action cards, on the other hand, can be played again by the same minion, their cost is not paid and that minion can take the same action again - ignoring NRA rules?
4. What does that mean for actions or modifiers that can only be played once per game?
- If someone cancels a Judgment: Death to the Brujah!, is it still considered played?
- If someone cancels a Giant's Blood, is it still considered played?
- If someone cancels a Strange Day, is it still considered played?
...
www.vekn.net/rulebook
1. Yes. That's the rulebook.
2. Yes. That's the rulebook.
3. Yes, it does not violate NRA as no NRA taint has occured yet. That's the rulebook.
4. Yes to all. That's the rulebook.A minion cannot play (unless cancelled) the same named action card more than once each turn, even if they unlock.
Longer ramble to give more context. The Game state remembers that cancelled cards were played, per rulebook. The Next card with restrictions of "only one XYZ can be played in a game" checks if such card has been already played. It has, it was cancelled.
Rules say
but they also sayPlaying a Card
A card is played by announcing its effects, showing the card and placing it from the hand in the ash heap upon resolution.
.The Golden Rule for Cards: Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence
The card says only one XYZ can be played in a game. Thus per the card in your hand, you cannot play it as card XYZ has already been played in this game. You cannot even attempt at playing it because, and this is one of my favorite LSJ rulings of all time groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/cHdOwueG71I/m/BTBYvTZhrAUJ
LSJ: you cannot attempt what you cannot do.
But let's pretend for giggles you could attempt what you could not do and see what the game looks like. You could not add from blood bank to your pool either. But now you suddenly can attempt and it's up to other players to stop you if they wish, after all they could not attempt to interrupt such adds before but now they can. You could not move cards from your ash heap to your hand but now you could attempt to do it. You could not take cards from other methuselahs but now you could attempt to do it...
We play a game with certain rules for reason and that's really it. That's VTES. There's things that happen because they're allowed to happen and there's other things that cannot happen because nothing allows them to happen. And they cannot even be attempted.
... It does seem weird that actions would basically be ignored, but modifiers & reactions are still considered "played" and still have a cost. Unless I'm reading that wrong.
As for it all seeming weird that actions are ignored, as you can see, they are not. All are considered played, the difference for costs for cards is that per rulebook, actions are paid only if the action succeeeds and I quote as it also has the action modifiers and reaction cards mentioned;
Note that the action’s cost, if any, is only paid if the action succeeds; the cost is not paid if the action is blocked. The costs of action modifiers and reaction cards are always paid when the cards are played, regardless of the success of the action.
Now if the card text differs, per Golden rule for Cards card text goes first. Which can lead to quite few "weird" interactions but which still are quite true thanks to the game we play where Cards are rules.
Rules say "reaction cards are always paid when the cards are played ", player cancels superior
Name: Telepathic Misdirection
[Jyhad:C, VTES:C, CE:C/PM4, BH:PM3/PTo4, Third:C/PM2/SKM1, KoT:C/PT4, SP:DoF2/LB4, FB:PM4/PTo4/PTr4, V5:PM5/PTr4, NB:PM2/PTo2/PTr4, V5C:PSal4]
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Auspex
[aus] +1 intercept.
[AUS] Only usable if a minion is bleeding you, after blocks are declined. Lock this reacting vampire. Change the target of the bleed to another Methuselah other than the acting minion's controller (that Methuselah can attempt to block).
Artist: Edward Beard, Jr.; James Stowe
Name: False Resonance
[LotN:C, POD:DTC]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Chimerstry
[chi] Cancel a reaction card requiring Auspex [aus] or Dementation [dem] as it is played, and its cost is not paid.
[CHI] +1 stealth, and once this action, this vampire can burn 1 blood to use the [chi] effect above.
Artist: Alexander Dunnigan
Or
Rules say minion cannot play the same action card (unless cancelled) again. But then the cancel is done with inferior
Name: Denial of Aphrodite's Favor
[BL:R1]
Cardtype: Combat/Reaction
Discipline: Dominate & Fortitude
[dom][for] Cancel an action card a younger vampire plays that requires Presence [pre] as it is played. No cost is paid. Do not lock the acting vampire; that vampire cannot attempt the same action again this turn.
[DOM][FOR] Cancel an action modifier or combat card a younger vampire plays that requires Presence [pre] as it is played. No cost is paid.
Artist: Brian LeBlanc
and suddenly per golden rule for cards, they cannot play the same action card as they cannot attempt the same action even when the rulebook says they should.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
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