file Move vampire to torpor/ash heap timing

13 Jun 2024 19:29 #111683 by KoRneeshon
I see no contradiction here, moving a vampire to torpor (or burning him) may happen at the end of the combat, but note that it's not after the combat, and also current round must end before the combat can end.

See the text on Decapitate:
"Only usable when the opposing vampire is going into torpor"
So the agg damage is dealt / Coma or Entombment have been resolved and the vamp is going to torpor, but he's not there yet until the end of combat. Since one combatant is not ready, end of the round happens (play your ToV here), then end of combat happens. Here, instead of moving the vamp to torpor, play Decapitate.

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13 Jun 2024 20:53 #111684 by Ankha
I'll give a detailed answer soon. In the meantime, food for thoughts (from IRC)

[16:00] floppyzedolfin: Say a vampire inflicts 1 agg to the opposing, and the opposing does not prevent.
[16:00] floppyzedolfin: The opposing (say it's B) is now wounded.
[16:00] floppyzedolfin: This "ends combat". But there still is an "end of round" window
[16:01] floppyzedolfin: In that window, is the wounded vampire ready? in torpor? going to torpor ?
[16:01] LSJ: Wounded. Going to torpor.
[16:01] LSJ: Not ready
[16:01] floppyzedolfin: Right.
[16:01] floppyzedolfin: But the pool for Tension in the Ranks has not yet been payed, correct ?
[16:01] LSJ: Sure.
[16:02] floppyzedolfin: Hm. Now, the tricky questions.
[16:02] floppyzedolfin: Say an Illusions of the Kindred gets burned due to an enourmous amount of agg damage.
[16:03] floppyzedolfin: err, the illusion does not prevent the tremendous agg damage, sorry.
[16:03] floppyzedolfin: The ruling says the controller may decide whether it is burned or removed from the game.
[16:03] floppyzedolfin: When is that choice made?
[16:04] floppyzedolfin: For instance, would the agg-striking vampire play Taste of Vitae before or after that choice ?
[16:05] LSJ: After combat ends.
[16:05] LSJ: After all the tasting is done.
[16:05] LSJ: Then the vampire burns or is removed.
[16:05] floppyzedolfin: But in the meantime, the illusion is wounded, correct ?
[16:06] LSJ: Yeah
[16:06] floppyzedolfin: But the illusion is not going to torpor, correct ?
[16:07] floppyzedolfin: (the fact that it's an illusion is not really relevant anymore, actually .. it can become Vampire B instead :p)
[16:08] floppyzedolfin: So the vampire having to deal with 18 unprevented agg damage is wounded, but cannot be going to torpor, nor cannot be in torpor. I suppose he can't be ready, so he must be "going to ash heap"
[16:08] LSJ: He won't ultimately wind up in torpor, but his is wounded. He is "going to torpor".
[16:08] floppyzedolfin: Hm, interesting.
[16:08] LSJ: Or rather "being burned".
[16:09] LSJ: Same thing.
[16:09] LSJ: Just a way of saying "wounded".
[16:09] floppyzedolfin: Nah - can I play Decapitate ?
[16:09] LSJ: Guess not.
[16:09] floppyzedolfin: That clears things a bit
[16:11] floppyzedolfin: Now, the stupidy related question one of our headjudges asked me
[16:12] floppyzedolfin: A inflicts 1 agg damage to B, B does not prevent. A plays Amaranth. B plays Reform Body, draws Undead Persistence, plays Undead Persistence. Can A play a Blur ?
[16:13] LSJ: How could A be prevented from playing Blur?
[16:13] Jozxyqk: if that happens in a real game, both players get $5
16:13] floppyzedolfin: Hm, I may have skipped the "Taste of vitae" before Amaranth.
[16:13] LSJ: Won't change anything.
[16:14] LSJ: Besides, B burned no blood.
[16:14] floppyzedolfin: So, we have been through an "end of round" window, but still, can declare additional strikes
[16:14] floppyzedolfin: Cycling, again
[16:14] LSJ: Sure.
[16:14] LSJ: UP prevented the round's ending.
[16:15] floppyzedolfin: Excellent
[16:16] floppyzedolfin: And now, last question (just to be sure I got it )
[16:17] floppyzedolfin: A inflicts enough damage to an ally to burn it. When A plays Orgy of blood, the ally is not yet burned, FBI damage has not yet been resolved, correct ?
[16:18] LSJ: Correct


Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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14 Jun 2024 07:30 - 14 Jun 2024 07:37 #111688 by Ankha

From discussions in the discord

It has been stated that the actual moving of a vampire to either torpor/ash heap doesn't happen until the end of combat.

Correct.

The rulebook and the discontinued detailed play summary place the move of the vampire to torpor/ash heap in the damage resolution step when the cause of the states is because of damage which clearly contradicts the above.

I won't comment the Detailed Play Summary, but the rulebook says "A wounded vampire goes to torpor after all remaining damage is handled (see Torpor)." But I'll amend the rulebook to make things clearer.

Per my understanding effects that send a vampire to torpor or burn the vampire make the state of the vampire "going to torpor"/"being burned" which provides the timing window that allows cards that work based on those states to be played (eg. Amaranth, Decapitate, etc.)

Correct.

and should be followed by the actual moving to torpor/ash heap if not changed within the created time window.

I can't be within the same time window, otherwise you wouldn't be able to play more cards based on those state after the vampire is "actually moved to torpor/ash heap".
The actual moving to torpor, ash heap or out of play happens right after combat phase has ended.

Can we please have a ruling accompanied by an explanation for why it is ruled as it is?
If ruled to not happen until the end of combat why are is it contradicting the rules and detailed play summary?

The reason is that the final state of the vampire can change due to cards such as Decapitate/Amarath (being burned instead of going to torpor), Undead Persistance (staying ready instead of going to torpor), Reform Body (going to torpor instead of being burned) and therefore it cannot be determined until everything is over.

The following sequence is legal: Disarm, Amaranth, Reform Body, Decapitate, Reform Body (again), Undead Persistance

I need to streamline the rulings regarding Amaranth however so that the actual diablerie happens after combat (the vampire being considered as "being burned" in the meantime, still allowing to play Reform Body for instance but avoiding weird situations where the diablerie is over and you want to play more end of round cards).

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 14 Jun 2024 07:37 by Ankha.

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14 Jun 2024 14:37 #111692 by Ankha
Here are the changes I propose to make things clearer:

github.com/GiottoVerducci/rulebook2024/pull/12

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16 Jun 2024 08:27 #111709 by inm8

and should be followed by the actual moving to torpor/ash heap if not changed within the created time window.

I can't be within the same time window, otherwise you wouldn't be able to play more cards based on those state after the vampire is "actually moved to torpor/ash heap".
The actual moving to torpor, ash heap or out of play happens right after combat phase has ended.

Why wouldn't one be able to play the relevant cards that insert themselves between the resolution of the effect and the actual moving of the minion (they are all replacement effects) ??

I´m getting the impression that the ruling is trying to extend the ability to play these effects from the time the effect resolves (pre-range, strike resolution, damage resolution, and end of round) to the end of the combat. If this is the case why?

In my opinion, limiting these effects to only be playable in the "replacement effect" timing windows would be a minimum change (if a change at all) that will only prevent the ability to fish for them by playing other cards before the end of the combat.


Can we please have a ruling accompanied by an explanation for why it is ruled as it is?
If ruled to not happen until the end of combat why are is it contradicting the rules and detailed play summary?

The reason is that the final state of the vampire can change due to cards such as Decapitate/Amarath (being burned instead of going to torpor), Undead Persistance (staying ready instead of going to torpor), Reform Body (going to torpor instead of being burned) and therefore it cannot be determined until everything is over.


The following sequence is legal: Disarm, Amaranth, Reform Body, Decapitate, Reform Body (again), Undead Persistance

Sure the state can change multiple times from the time an effect resolves till the end of the combat but as these are replacement effects that would still be handled correctly.

I cannot see that the mentioned sequence wouldn´t still be possible (assuming having/drawing the needed cards in the right order).

I need to streamline the rulings regarding Amaranth however so that the actual diablerie happens after combat (the vampire being considered as "being burned" in the meantime, still allowing to play Reform Body for instance but avoiding weird situations where the diablerie is over and you want to play more end of round cards).


This wouldn´t need to be "fixed" and there would be a (in my opinion) more natural and logical handling of these effects. Diablerie and Blood Hunt would continue to be fully resolved in their sub-windows and therefore avoid awkward handling that would be the result if kept around till the end of combat.

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20 Jun 2024 09:32 #111759 by inm8
Any thoughts/comments on the above?

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