Break the Bonds presence target

inm8 wrote:

the general interpretation of the Keystone Kine ruling was thought to be based on the conditional nature of the effect ("if y, x") making it not know if it (x) would happen and therefore didn´t require the declaration of the target in the announcement and would only need to be done when and if the qualifier (y) was met... which is why this ruling in KRCG is currently also linked to eg. The Platinum Protocol

1. Since KK is an action, the " If this action is successful," part is in fact optional but put the emphasis on the fact that something depending on the outcome of the action must be decided when the action resolves. However, since that some something depends on the final bleed amount, it is implied that the outcome must be known before making that decision.

2. BtB depends on the bleed being successful, which is different from KK, but it doesn't matter for determining whether the target(s) must be declared or not. Since the [obf] effect depends on the outcome as it relies on the final target of the bleed, the minion being locked cannot be chosen before resolution. But the [pre] effect doesn't, so you can and must choose the target when announcing the action.

3. PP is an action modifier, depending on the bleed being successful and the final target of the bleed.

inm8 wrote:

now your provided ruling (assumingly based on the same ruling) states that it is because of the unknown details of the bleed value that matters for the targeting of the conditional effect why the target declaration is delayed for it... which means it has nothing to do with conditional effects and their unknown nature of whether they will happen or not.

one would need to know about this ruling to come to the right conclusion and it is difficult to generally apply it as the argument could be made that the conditional effects all have an unknown aspect to them but this unknown fact doesn't matter only unknown aspects that affect the targeting do.

The rule is: make all the possible choices when announcing the action. Choices that depend on the outcome of the action must be made during resolution.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

OK, going to leave the editorial complaining out and skip straight to questions.

1) You need an uncontrolled minion to announce the line on Break the Bonds (ruled in this thread). You don't necessarily choose the minion at that time as Undue Influence's explicit text requires, one just has to be there for announcement.

QUESTION: Do you defer selection of the recipient until after the bleed is successful?

No, it can and must be chosen when announcing the action.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

That's what the Keystone Kine precedent would suggest - the target of "if successful" lines are selected only after the bleed demonstrates success. That 2-part timing feels clumsy.

It's suggesting something, but it's not required.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

There's also that Platinum Protocol question hanging. The line is mandatory and should have a valid target on announcement if you follow the Break the Bonds ruling here.

The recipient cannot be chosen as long as the final target of the bleed is not known.

TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:

QUESTION: Is a valid INITIAL target for every MANDATORY effect required even when there's a "if successful" that implies deferred selection of the actual target?

"Initial" implies it may change. So no, you don't choose it until the resolution.