file Dam the Heart's River and Target Vitals

03 Jul 2024 23:31 #111911 by Killiam
Nowhere in the text of DtHR does it mention "sources" of damage nor "instances" of damage. The term in question is "damaging effects." Effects and sources are distinct concepts in game terms. That is why a ruling is needed and not more opinions.

Based on the LSJ ruling for Nephandus, I expect it will come out as you say, but the real ask here is for clarity on that ruling.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"I look back from where I'm from
Look at the woman I've become
And the strangest things seem
Suddenly routine"
-Hedwig Robinson

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04 Jul 2024 16:14 #111917 by Yomyael
A damaging effect would be like Outside the Hourglass, that just inflicts damage.

Target Vitals however modifies the strike. It does not deal damage by itself, it says "this strike deals +2 damage". There is no additional damaging effect, simply a modification of a strike. It's the same reason why the additional damage from Target Vitals is aggravated if the strike itself dealt aggravated damage.

Prince of Bonn, Germany
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05 Jul 2024 05:34 #111926 by Killiam
Yes, it modifies the strike... with damage. That's its effect.
Look, I know how the ruling will come out (I think we all know), but you can't tell me there's no room for reasonable, conflicting interpretation; there clearly is. That's why I have asked for an official ruling; so we don't have to have this conversation in the middle of a tournament.
There's really nothing to be gained by further discussion.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"I look back from where I'm from
Look at the woman I've become
And the strangest things seem
Suddenly routine"
-Hedwig Robinson

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05 Jul 2024 07:04 - 05 Jul 2024 07:08 #111927 by KoRneeshon
There's a difference between "deal X damage" and "increase damage by X" - the first one is an effect dealing the damage, the other is an effect enhancing other damage dealing effect. Target Vitals, or e.g. Increased Strength enhance other effects. Yes, with more damage, but are not dealing damage themselves.

If it's easier for you can ask yourself if TV or IS will give you anything if played without the effect they modify? They won't, meaning they don't deal the damage themselves.
Last edit: 05 Jul 2024 07:08 by KoRneeshon.
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07 Jul 2024 18:32 #111959 by Killiam
You're not saying anything that everyone doesn't already know. You're also not saying anything relevant until we can get a ruling that says that damage-augmenting effects don't count as damaging effects. That ruling is what I'm asking for. Please note that to "deal" damage is not relevant to the inquiry. The inquiry is about the technical definition of "damaging effects." DtHR does not mention "damage dealing effects," which is a separate matter unless and until the rules team collapses those terms into one OFFICIALLY.

The ruling I'm asking for extends beyond Target Vitals, and in fact would include (or rather, exclude) Dam the Heart's River itself with respect to other cards concerned with "damaging effects" (e.g., Valerie Diaz, Nephandus).

The value of getting official rulings (which at this point I'm believing are actively discouraged by in-thread conversation) is having a place to point to for quickly settling debates that soak up clock time during tournaments. To that end, if you are not a member of the rules team, PLEASE STOP COMMENTING ON THIS THREAD. Thanks.

-Killiam
(Bill Troxel)
"I look back from where I'm from
Look at the woman I've become
And the strangest things seem
Suddenly routine"
-Hedwig Robinson

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07 Jul 2024 19:18 #111960 by Ankha

The inquiry is about the technical definition of "damaging effects." DtHR does not mention "damage dealing effects," which is a separate matter unless and until the rules team collapses those terms into one OFFICIALLY.

"damaging effect": an effect that inflicts damage.
It includes effect that inflict damage explicitly (by card text) or implicitly (for instance a strike).

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