Garibaldi and Jericho Founding
17 Mar 2025 12:56 #113969
by acbishop
Replied by acbishop on topic Garibaldi and Jericho Founding
Jericho Founding
Requires a non-Camarilla vampire.
Successful referendum means all locations are burned. Any Methuselah can keep any locations he or she controls by repaying their pool cost.
Reckless Agitation
Requires an Independent or Anarch vampire with capacity 5 or more.
Allocate 6 points among two or more other Methuselahs. Successful referendum means each Methuselah burns 1 pool for each point allocated.
Cardtext of reckless specifiy independent or Anarch, so it can be recover with Garibaldi.
Jericho doesn't require an anarch, only non-Camarilla, so it cannot be retrieved
Requires a non-Camarilla vampire.
Successful referendum means all locations are burned. Any Methuselah can keep any locations he or she controls by repaying their pool cost.
Reckless Agitation
Requires an Independent or Anarch vampire with capacity 5 or more.
Allocate 6 points among two or more other Methuselahs. Successful referendum means each Methuselah burns 1 pool for each point allocated.
Cardtext of reckless specifiy independent or Anarch, so it can be recover with Garibaldi.
Jericho doesn't require an anarch, only non-Camarilla, so it cannot be retrieved
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17 Mar 2025 23:17 #113974
by the1andonlime
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
興っ
www.youtube.com/SuakuOz
Replied by the1andonlime on topic Garibaldi and Jericho Founding
Thanks for the card texts 
So the extensive discussion on discord was whether "non-Camarilla" is short hand for "Sabbat, Laibon, Anarch, or Independent"
Reckless Agitation's ruling implies that "requires Anarch" being part of a set of requirements fulfils the criteria for Garibaldi Museum
Mathematically, "non-Camarilla" is a set of requirements that includes "Anarch"
However, we also recognise that there is the argument that, in VtES parlance, "non-Camarilla" is a distinct trait and mathematical logic may not apply
This interpretation arose from LSJ 20081120-1 but LSJ also explicitly mentioned in that same ruling that this applies to specifically Vidal
I'm really posting this on behalf of the rulings database team to get a RD rules reference we can use to update the rulings database
So the extensive discussion on discord was whether "non-Camarilla" is short hand for "Sabbat, Laibon, Anarch, or Independent"
Reckless Agitation's ruling implies that "requires Anarch" being part of a set of requirements fulfils the criteria for Garibaldi Museum
Mathematically, "non-Camarilla" is a set of requirements that includes "Anarch"
However, we also recognise that there is the argument that, in VtES parlance, "non-Camarilla" is a distinct trait and mathematical logic may not apply
This interpretation arose from LSJ 20081120-1 but LSJ also explicitly mentioned in that same ruling that this applies to specifically Vidal
I'm really posting this on behalf of the rulings database team to get a RD rules reference we can use to update the rulings database
Garibaldi-Meucci Museum
Jericho Founding
Reckless Agitation
Vidal Jarbeaux
LSJ 20081120-1
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
興っ
www.youtube.com/SuakuOz
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20 Mar 2025 07:04 - 20 Mar 2025 07:05 #113984
by Ankha
Logically, "requires A or B" does not imply "requires A" in the sense that a B vampire (not A) could still play the cards.
However, it has been ruled that, by design, effects that can retrieve a card "requiring A" work for cards "requiring A or B" (explicitly)
For instance, you can retrieve an Armor of Terra (tha / vis) with a Spirit Summoning Chamber. [LSJ 20020510]
You can also retrieve cards whose requirement derives directly from another. For instance, a card that "requires a baron" can be retrieve by an effect that mentions "requires an Anarch" (as baron implies Anarch).
[LSJ 20081201]
Therefore, Garibaldi-Meucci Museum can be used to retrieve a Reckless Agitation ("requires an Independant or Anarch vampire"), but cannot be used to retrieve a Jericho Founding ("requires a non-Camarilla vampire") because JF doesn't refer explicitly to an Anarch, and non-Camarilla vampire does not imply Anarch.
Replied by Ankha on topic Garibaldi and Jericho Founding
No. (Detailed explanation below.)Can I use Garibaldi-Meuci Museum to retrieve a copy of Jericho Founding from the ash heap?
Answer: A)I guess the broader question is:
Does "non-Camarilla" count as
A) a standalone "non-Camarilla" trait, or
B) a short hand for "Sabbat, Laibon, Anarch, or Independent"?
Ruling on Vidal seems to suggest (A) but Reckless Agitation being a legal target for Garibaldi suggests (B)
Logically, "requires A or B" does not imply "requires A" in the sense that a B vampire (not A) could still play the cards.
However, it has been ruled that, by design, effects that can retrieve a card "requiring A" work for cards "requiring A or B" (explicitly)
For instance, you can retrieve an Armor of Terra (tha / vis) with a Spirit Summoning Chamber. [LSJ 20020510]
From the Bloodlines preview (Daughters):
When played, the card counts as requiring the discipline being used (for effects that enhance or restrict cards that require certain disciplines). In the hand (or library or ash heap), the card can be considered to require either discipline (for effects that retrieve
cards that require certain disciplines).
You can also retrieve cards whose requirement derives directly from another. For instance, a card that "requires a baron" can be retrieve by an effect that mentions "requires an Anarch" (as baron implies Anarch).
[LSJ 20081201]
Therefore, Garibaldi-Meucci Museum can be used to retrieve a Reckless Agitation ("requires an Independant or Anarch vampire"), but cannot be used to retrieve a Jericho Founding ("requires a non-Camarilla vampire") because JF doesn't refer explicitly to an Anarch, and non-Camarilla vampire does not imply Anarch.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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