file Clarification on Forward Momentum

19 Dec 2025 03:28 - 19 Dec 2025 03:39 #116019 by Coyote
Name: Forward Momentum
[SV5:PCathari1]
Cardtype: Master
Path: Cathari
Unique.
Put this card in play. After a vampire who follows the Path of Cathari you control bleeds, if the bleed is successful (for 1 or more), add 1 counter to this card; otherwise, burn 1 counter from this card. After a vampire who follows the Path of Cathari you control performs an action, you can burn 2 counters from this card to unlock them.
Artist: Mitch Mueller


This card has:

A trigger: After a vampire who follows the Path of Cathari you control bleeds
An effect: if the bleed is successful (for 1 or more), add 1 counter to this card; otherwise, burn 1 counter from this card.

The problem I have is what means “Bleeds” in the trigger

Bleed can mean both a Bleed action and a Bleed effect.

If bleeds means “a bleed action” in that case.
The trigger activates after a bleed action (successful or not)
If the vampire bleeds for 1+ you add a counter. If bleeds for 0 or was blocked, burn 1

If bleeds means “a bleed effect” in that case.
The trigger activates after a successful bleed action
If the vampire bleeds for 1+ you add a counter. If bleeds for 0 burn 1

I haven’t found anything in the rules that can point me to one direction or the other

So I checked the cards that already have the word “bleeds”

There are 17 cards with the word "Bleeds"

vdb.im/library?q=%7B%22text%22%3A%5B%7B%22value%22%3A%22bleeds%22%2C%22logic%22%3A%22and%22%7D%5D%7D

One is Forward Momentum
3 cards use Bleeds to designate a Bleed action
The remaining 13 use “Bleeds” to designate a bleed effect of burning pool.
That 13 cards use the wording "After Successfully Bleeds" (not an official wording but implying that the action is over)
Forward Momentum use "After bleeds" (Nothing about successful)
The 3 card identifying actions by Bleeds don't use “After” neither use “Successful”

Checking for more info, I searched for similar cards that use the word “Hunts” as Hunt and Bleed use the same rules in this case.

www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/76595-rules-team-rulings-rtr-11-05-2018

There are 12 cards

vdb.im/library?q=%7B%22text%22%3A%5B%7B%22value%22%3A%22hunts%22%2C%22logic%22%3A%22and%22%7D%2C%7B%22value%22%3A%22blood+hunt%22%2C%22logic%22%3A%22not%22%7D%5D%7D

Only one use Hunts to designate a hunt action. The remaining 11 designate the hunt effect.
That cards use the wording "successfully hunts" except one
That one is the only one that has an effect both in case of successful and unsuccessful hunt effect (by the way is the same effect)
Also, they use a mix of “After”, “When”,”If” all of them implying that the action is over.


According to the existing cards, if I had to interpret the card, I would say that “bleeds” refers to the bleed effect. So in case of being blocked, no counter would be burned.
The lacking of "After Successfully Bleeds" is because it can have an effect both in case of successful and unsuccessful bleed effect (similar to Triole’s revenge, the card that used the word “hunts” without “successfully”).
Also, if I am strict with the language, we are talking about an “After action”. A vampire blocked could no bleed after being blocked. So I imply that “After a vampire bleeds” means “after a vampire carried out a successful bleed action and bled his target”

But I could be wrong.

So what “bleeds” (action or effect) is the one from the trigger “After a vampire who follows the Path of Cathari you control bleeds” and why?

Thanks
Last edit: 19 Dec 2025 03:39 by Coyote.

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19 Dec 2025 07:49 #116021 by KoRneeshon
I would say it's about the effect, not the action. From the rulebook, section 3 Minion phase, Bleed, this is how successful bleed is defined:

Effect: If the action succeeds, the target Methuselah burns an amount of pool equal to the bleed amount. By default, all vampires have a bleed amount of 1. If the action succeeds and the bleed amount is 1 or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it, if any.

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