exclamation-circle Diablerie - ADV Rule 4

01 Feb 2023 02:16 - 01 Feb 2023 02:22 #107299 by thiago_sousa
Hello everyone.

My name's Thiago and I'm Rio de Janeiro's Head Judge after the passing of our eternal and most cherished friend, Fernando Cesar (aka Sydnelson).
A both technical and ethical doubt occured to one of the players and asked me regarding the following situation:
"Minion A attempts a diablerie action against a vampire controlled by another Methuselah. The action is successfull: the acting minion got the both blood and equip and, since he's "younger", he may go through to ash heap, hand and library to get the master: discipline."
And that is the exact point: by rule, you CAN search your library but, if you ALREADY KNOW that your deck doesn't have that master: discipline card, searching only to get a chance to shuffle your deck is considered cheating?
From now on, I'm gonna write they way I see this situation.
According to Judges' Guide, session 162, example 'B', I consider that the action to use a Vast Wealth to look for an equip card KNOWING that you dont have any more equip card left in your library is chaeting and conducted with bad faith - which the punishment is Game Loss -, and is the same as the one on the quoted example, in a way that the player will get his library shuffled, thus gaining an advantage. I know that every case is different, but, once comproved the bad faith, for either case, I would apply the Game Loss punishment.
So, I would like to know your thoughts, insights and recommendations regarding this matter.
Thanks in advance.

Best regards,
Thiago Sousa.
Last edit: 01 Feb 2023 02:22 by thiago_sousa.

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01 Feb 2023 06:48 - 01 Feb 2023 06:49 #107300 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Diablerie - ADV Rule 4


And that is the exact point: by rule, you CAN search your library but, if you ALREADY KNOW that your deck doesn't have that master: discipline card, searching only to get a chance to shuffle your deck is considered cheating?

No, because it's allowed by the rules. You can even "fail" to find a Discipline, even if there is one in your deck.

From now on, I'm gonna write they way I see this situation.
According to Judges' Guide, session 162, example 'B', I consider that the action to use a Vast Wealth to look for an equip card KNOWING that you dont have any more equip card left in your library is chaeting and conducted with bad faith -

It's legal.
However, stalling is not.

So if the player uses the Vast Wealth in order to simply shuffle their library, they can do so without looking at the deck if the judge agrees (because the judge have a quick look to confirm there is no equipment). Remember that Vast Wealth forces you to equip so it can basically oust the player if the cost is too high.
If the player uses the Vast Wealth to look at all the cards one by one and stall, the judge can take the adequate penalty and even add some time to the table.

It's the same for the diablerie. If the player looks quickly or simply shuffles their library because they don't want to fetch a Discipline card, they can. But they cannot stall.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 01 Feb 2023 06:49 by Ankha.
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02 Feb 2023 02:20 - 02 Feb 2023 07:51 #107306 by thiago_sousa
Replied by thiago_sousa on topic Diablerie - ADV Rule 4

It's legal.
However, stalling is not.

So if the player uses the Vast Wealth in order to simply shuffle their library, they can do so without looking at the deck if the judge agrees (because the judge have a quick look to confirm there is no equipment). Remember that Vast Wealth forces you to equip so it can basically oust the player if the cost is too high.
If the player uses the Vast Wealth to look at all the cards one by one and stall, the judge can take the adequate penalty and even add some time to the table.

It's the same for the diablerie. If the player looks quickly or simply shuffles their library because they don't want to fetch a Discipline card, they can. But they cannot stall.


But, if the player knows before hand that his deck doesn't have any more equipments to look for neither have master: discipline, shuffling their decks will give him some sort of advantage, like for example, the shuffling bring up a card that he needs that, otherwise, would take longer to came. That can change the course of a game. And, if this is done on purpose, on my point of view, is as much cheating as stolling. An act commited on bad faith to acquire advantage, even if some breach in the rules allows it, it goes against the ethic and fair play, which is also illegal. If you decide that even though this is legal, I'll abide in accordance, but, the way I see, you're giving a white check for players act on bad faith.
Last edit: 02 Feb 2023 07:51 by Ankha.

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02 Feb 2023 08:08 - 02 Feb 2023 08:13 #107309 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Diablerie - ADV Rule 4

It's legal.
However, stalling is not.

So if the player uses the Vast Wealth in order to simply shuffle their library, they can do so without looking at the deck if the judge agrees (because the judge have a quick look to confirm there is no equipment). Remember that Vast Wealth forces you to equip so it can basically oust the player if the cost is too high.
If the player uses the Vast Wealth to look at all the cards one by one and stall, the judge can take the adequate penalty and even add some time to the table.

It's the same for the diablerie. If the player looks quickly or simply shuffles their library because they don't want to fetch a Discipline card, they can. But they cannot stall.


But, if the player knows before hand that his deck doesn't have any more equipments to look for neither have master: discipline, shuffling their decks will give him some sort of advantage, like for example, the shuffling bring up a card that he needs that, otherwise, would take longer to came.

Sure, it's a legal and sensible use of the card.

That can change the course of a game. And, if this is done on purpose, on my point of view, is as much cheating as stolling.

It's not cheating as it is a legal use of the card.
Stalling is a different matter. You could stall by using a Dreams of the Sphinx and taking too much time to discard for instance. You could stall by playing a Magic of the Smith and taking too much time to find an equipment.
But if the player uses the Vast Wealth just to shuffle their deck, it's perfectly fine if there's a good reason (such as shuffling the card they just put under the deck using a Heart of Nizchetus).

An act commited on bad faith to acquire advantage, even if some breach in the rules allows it, it goes against the ethic and fair play, which is also illegal. If you decide that even though this is legal, I'll abide in accordance, but, the way I see, you're giving a white check for players act on bad faith.


There's no breach in the rule once again. Players are entitled to use their cards the way they see fit if it's legal. "Bad faith" has nothing to do here. It's not because you know your deck has no card to find that you cannot use an effect to search your library and shuffle it. It is allowed by the rules.

However, stalling is sanctioned. So if the player shuffles their deck without a good reason except to gain time, it can be sanctioned.

For instance, the player uses the Vast Wealth and there is no equipment left in the deck. They shuffle. The deck is randomized.

a) the player uses a Heart of Nizchetus and put some cards under the deck. They have a perfectly good reason to shuffle their deck later.
b) the player uses a Marrakesh Codex to look at the top cards of their deck. They have a perfectly good reason to shuffle their deck later if the cards are not the ones they want.
c) Another player takes a look at the top or bottom card of their deck. They have a perfectly good reason to shuffle their deck later so that other player doesn't know anymore where the card is.

But if the content of their deck is not changed or been looked at by someone, the deck is still randomized and shuffling it changes nothing. So, using the Vast Wealth to shuffle a deck that is already shuffled is probably stalling and should be penalized.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 02 Feb 2023 08:13 by Ankha.
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02 Feb 2023 14:18 #107314 by thiago_sousa
Replied by thiago_sousa on topic Diablerie - ADV Rule 4
Ok then.
Like I said, i'll abide in accordance to this ruling.
Thank you very much for clarification.

Best regards,
Thiago Sousa

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02 Feb 2023 19:21 #107315 by inm8
Replied by inm8 on topic Diablerie - ADV Rule 4

But if the content of their deck is not changed or been looked at by someone, the deck is still randomized and shuffling it changes nothing. So, using the Vast Wealth to shuffle a deck that is already shuffled is probably stalling and should be penalized.


Only if it is actually taking an abnormal amount of time I hope....anything else would be illogical as it is an effect permitted by the card text. Whether the shuffling changes anything or not is irrelevant when it comes to if it is stalling or not....only the time used to do something allowed by an effect is....otherwise blocking when you know that you are being ousted by being swarmed could also be punished as stalling.

Let's stay VTES players and not become MTG players.

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