Combat - why is it currently considered weak ?

alek wrote:

Combat is extremely weak compared to other way to deal with minions, to the point an increasingly big number of deck don't pack any defence against it because it's just that weak.

I would agree to it, if you would wrote this post few years ago. Now, combat is very strong and people are including a lot of anti-combat cards because of it.
Just check the results of f.e. last EC (or the previous) to see how succesfull combat decks are in biggest tournaments. EC 2011 winner - combat, other finalists: two combat decks, two decks with strong anty-combat (obediences in one, majesties in the other)

I look the TWDA. Five first deck, only one try to win its combat.

Yes, yes, strong and dominant.

Isn't there a swing to toolbox recently? Some succesfully decks now add a impressive number of combat cards. People don't call it toolbox as this label seems to have a negative connotation. But looking at the triple and quadruple-Bs (bleed, block, bruise and bloat) I find it very interesting how combat cards seem to have a renaissance. The EC's final is a proof too.

Kushiel wrote:

If you use it with stealth as a delivery system, you're basically playing stealth/bleed except that being unblocked means that your prey loses two blood from a vampire rather than three pool. And the crypt for obf/POT is of course even worse than the crypt for mono-POT, but it doesn't come bundled with any more defensive options, meaning you're paying more for your vampires but are still relying on...Touch of Pain for defense.

You are mostly relying on whacking your predator's vampires for defense. It is kind of like a weenie rush deck, but more card efficient (although less action efficient). POT/obf is easy enough to come by in, like, G2/3 (Agatha, Olivia, Nigel, Amelia, and Ox is most of your crypt). You stealth by the Horseshoes and have some Behind You and No Trace in case you do get caught. A few Touch of Pains, Delaying Tactics, and master bloat. Isn't the absolute best deck in the world or anything, but I played it a lot in playtest, and it was effective, and put it together in reality (I think originally backed by Ashur Tablets as I only had, like, 14 Horseshoes to start with...) and it won games now and then. I just took it apart as it made everyone mad at me when I played it. No one likes having their dudes sent to torpor all the time when they can't do anything about it.

EDIT: I should add that I could see the card being useful as prayer tech, but there aren't a lot of decks that have the POT to take advantage of it but aren't better off using that POT for combat instead. Jay Kristoff does have a Nos deck that had, IIRC, two copies of 'Shoes in it, and that was probably the best place for it that I've seen.

Well, if you have a lot of sideline POT and are already using obfuscate (say, Nosferatu Breed Boon or something), Horseshoes is a fantastic way to deal with, like, Carleton Van Wyk or the occasional "I Villeined Arika down to 1!" you run into. It is a great card for that sort of thing. But you need to already have the stealth going for you.

Ohlmann wrote:

I look the TWDA. Five first deck, only one try to win its combat.

Yes, yes, strong and dominant.

Well, while I'm not going to defend the "combat is strong and dominant" angle, of the top 10 decks in the TWDA, 8 of them include either a significant combat angle (2 are Guns/Cel; one has a lot of Tha combat--mostly Theft of Vitae; the Torn Signpost/Stutter Step deck that I'd never have imagined showing up in the TWDA) or have a significant anti-combat angle (2 have a significant number of protean S:CE as well as ag hands; one has a significant number of Majesties; one has a significant number of Obedience). So looking at that random selection of reasonably effective decks, the strong majority of them are either using combat to their advantage or considering combat as enough of a hinderance so as to have more than 10% of their deck spent on defending themselves from it.

bakija wrote:

So looking at that random selection of reasonably effective decks, the strong majority of them are either using combat to their advantage or considering combat as enough of a hinderance so as to have more than 10% of their deck spent on defending themselves from it.

And compare that decks to the ones back 2009 or so. They really featured NO combat cards at all. So that is new.

Ohlmann wrote:

Well, we don't play the same game. Combat is extremely weak compared to other way to deal with minions, to the point an increasingly big number of deck don't pack any defence against it because it's just that weak.

And there are some decks that don't bother with bleed defense. They try to outbloat any bleed their predator throws their way, or they intend to preemptively torporize their predator's minions first.

Lots of decks don't bother with vote defense, not even bothering to include Delaying Tactics and sometimes having no titled vampire at all in the crypt.