Combat - why is it currently considered weak ?

Also, there are already a few combat card that give you benefit outside of combat : street cred, concealed weapon for example. The first one netting pool gain, the second one giving unblockable free action (and the [obf] version allow you to equip weapons that does serve outside of combat, like www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?lib=940 or www.secretlibrary.info/index.php?lib=284 )

The first one is not that used (too costly ?), while the second is powerful but have well-known weakness (hand jam source, mainly).

For the proposition at hand, I believe they are not too useful. Both have a condition that can be read as "if you put your opponent in torpor, punish him even more". I don't recall Scalpel tongue needing me to actually pass the referendum.

The first one is a dominate card. You just don't need it when you can mind rape your predator anyway. Dominate does not need high profile card for now.

The second one seem too much because the targeted vampire is pretty likely to already be in torpor.

What I would see as effect would be :
* some action enabling (stealth, untap, additional vote until EOT, even card drawing)
* pool gain or action gain that does not require me to have a 3-card combo to use
* some targeted protection. I.E. something that work to foil mind rape, shattering Crescendo, cryptic mission, that kind of non-combat minion-disabling card.

What I would like to see is an event that makes all s:ce effects cost an additional blood or life to use (and does not have an inherent burn clause like NSA Trio).

Klaital wrote:

What I would like to see is an event that makes all s:ce effects cost an additional blood or life to use (and does not have an inherent burn clause like NSA Trio).

Side effect : Obedience (and a little Mental maze) gain additional edge compared to S:CE.

Also, blood cost may not be enough. Before going throught all the blood on a vampire playing majesty, even at 2 blood, you may need 4 or 5 actions, for something that don't even need the vampire to be waked.

Ohlmann wrote:

Klaital wrote:

What I would like to see is an event that makes all s:ce effects cost an additional blood or life to use (and does not have an inherent burn clause like NSA Trio).

Side effect : Obedience (and a little Mental maze) gain additional edge compared to S:CE.

Also, blood cost may not be enough. Before going throught all the blood on a vampire playing majesty, even at 2 blood, you may need 4 or 5 actions, for something that don't even need the vampire to be waked.

You could say the same about narrow minds, and people play that a lot too so apparently it works.

@jamesatzephyr:

You are right about the points you made. There is much to combat that do make people lose. If you play combat recklessly, you end up the losing side just because your prey or your predator can't do anything to your cross-table allies. Smart players, were they playing combat or not, need to give room other players.

About (my) quotes:
What I had in mind was an effect, which would mimic existing cards (effects), but slightly weaker. Of course, exact phrasing need to be considered. About the blood cost - yeah, that can be converted to life or convictions, were game design team to make one such card. And, in both card examples there were clause that burns them after during (my) next turn. If one would be worried about old Mind Rape phrasing (I get ousted, and card never burns), that can be solved easily as well.

And, about shutting down players:

There are already lot of decks that can shut down a player more effectively: Mind Rape + Abactor / Mind Rape + Baltimore Purge are archetypes that come to my mind. They don'¨t rely combat and can destroy vampires with ease. So, there is nothing new to decks that shut down players - it's more or less the timing instead of means. (Edit:) In Warzaw LCQ I never got ousted either and scored vp's from all tables.

Another point: I have played quite successfully combat decks, but never won a tournament. Best successes have been in Europe's FCQ and LCQ for 2011 - same deck. In Warsaw, I was 15th or so with a !Brujah bruise and bleed deck. What was important of my single game win, that I rushed my prey once, predator once and my grand predator enough that he couldn't turtle up. That success was all about timing - and good amount of luck of course and not much stealth bleeders.

The point is, that (imaginary) combat cards that influence the game in hand don't need to shut down a opposing player completely - combat itself can do it. What I'd like to see is a card that can slow down another player enough to pace current game in play, but not shut him down completely (since combat it self can accomplish that... Am I repeating my self?).

But, james is right about caution when considering alternative effects for combat.

Combat's weakness is not in the effectiveness of combat. It's weakness lies with the players playing it thinking that removing vampires from the ready region and making the game un-fun for at least 1 person entitles them to win.

Stop using combat as a way to oust, but instead use it as a delivery system.