Combat - why is it currently considered weak ?

The combat game needs to be treated as an opportunity to interact with other player's resources. Voting by the way could use similar help, in my opinion (and first off I think Voter Cap being democratized in some fashion, just like bounce should be, and Taste of Vitae roughly already is, should be where to start. But that's another discussion).

Combat should be used as a window to insert other strategic effects. Just as I liked how Scalpel Tongue and the like added a new dimension to vote as a method for tapping/being tapped, and the stealth v. intercept game opened interesting cat & mouse games with Mask of 1000 Faces and Faceless Night, combat should have more results than just "I dirt nap you out of my way, and maybe deal some pool damage." Let it affect resource management outside of its own milieu. For example:

(Introduce cross-table interaction to the combat window)

Drawing Too Much Attention
Combat
Playable by an untapped vampire not involved in this combat, before strike resolution. A minion may only play one of this card per combat. This minion gets +1 Intercept against the acting minion's next action. If a strike: combat ends, or more than one maneuver, is used this combat then the acting minion gets -1 stealth, and the blocking minion gets -1 intercept, until the end of this turn.

(Give combat disciplines something else to do at the table)

Strength's Allure
Action / Reaction
Potence
1 Blood
A vampire may play Strength's Allure only once per turn.
pot: Take control of an ally or younger vampire until the end of your next action. Untap this acting vampire.
POT: End the action of an ally or a vampire with a capacity of 4 or less. The acting minion's controller may cancel this card by giving you 1 pool.

(Use the combat window to set up additional strategic resources outside)

Anticipation
Combat
Celerity
1 Blood
A player may have only one Anticipation in play at a time.
cel: Before strike resolution against one of your predator's minions, put this card in play. This card may be burned to reduce a bleed against you by 3.
CEL: Play if you used a maneuver this combat. Before strike resolution, put this card in play. This card may be burned to redirect a bleed against you to another methuselah.

(use the combat window to set up additional strategic penalties outside)

Fear of Retribution
Combat
Play before strike resolution if your minion is dealing more damage than the opposing minion this combat.
Until your next untap phase, the opposing minion must pay an additional blood to attempt actions.

Azel wrote:

Anticipation
Combat
Celerity
1 Blood
A player may have only one Anticipation in play at a time.
cel: Before strike resolution against one of your predator's minions, put this card in play. This card may be burned to reduce a bleed against you by 3.
CEL: Play if you used a maneuver this combat. Before strike resolution, put this card in play. This card may be burned to redirect a bleed against you to another methuselah.

I'm pretty vocally in favour of having combat cards be a bit more versatile - the strike that's also a reaction, the rush that's also a bleed modifier - but this one doesn't make much sense to me.

First of all, thematically, I'm not sure why a vampire in the heat of combat can somehow get predictive knowledge of a (potentially) completely different minion's actions. Possibly if it was a "If this opponent tries to bleed you later, you get..." it might make more sense - but those sorts of effects are often quite weak, becauase you might well be getting a benefit against a vampire you want to kill (or have killed) anyway.

But theme can obviously be smushed into place a bit - or simply over-ridden - where things get better. But I'm not sure why Celerity warrants the ability to smack a vampire about a bit, and get a powerful bleed reduce or bleed bounce out of it. In more or less every other case, bleed bounce requires you to have an untapped minion for this purpose, or expend a Wake of some sort. This you can play while doing your thing anyway - no extra resources expended. Yes, you pay a blood - but Celerity+Taste of Vitae is very often a good blood gain mechanism. Guns+Blur is the obvious one, but you can alter to taste, and since you're often at range, hit back is harder. Certainly, incidental hand damage is something you avoid in that situation - though a close-range IG/Blur deck probably won't.

So the downsides are - only one in play, and it's in plain sight. Both can be quite annoying - but people do play Dummy Corporation (reduce in plain sight), and Major Boon (pseudo-redirect in plain sight) gets played too.

Say in the early game, I bring out Jimmy Dunn - turn 1, maybe turn 2. I bang one of your vampires into torpor, play this in the same combat, and any other vampires you have are going to be somewhat stalled bleeding me. It feels like a bit of a double whammy - your dead vampire can't bleed me, and neither can this other one.

It feels like it could well exacerbate the (slightly nebulous) problem of combat making an opposing player's game very un-fun.

Fair enough criticisms. But the cards themselves are not the point of the discussion. They are mere examples of directions. The parenthesized sentences before them are the point. (Granted I could have structured that better in terms of visuals, but alas.)

The reason why I put X benefit in Celerity is because, as an example: a) celerity needs more interesting things to do, b) this is an example of using the combat window to set up beneficial resources, c) celerity could use some real bleed defense to help multiple clans who have defensive issues.

Don't read too much more into the example than that.

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Discussion Shift

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By the way, the reason I mention this is noting how MtG and L5R have been expanding laterally into previously untapped windows of opportunity for resource setup. Now, those games as duelist games tend to be more cutthroat, but the design principle is interesting. If Action and Resolution is a major milieu of the game, and one of the more interactive ones in this game, how can we spice up Referendum and Combat, two other major milieux that tend to be neglected by people who feel competing in either is a crapshoot or foregone conclusion?

Essentially, how to increase interaction into rather staid facets of the game? Well, note how stealth v. intercept has its own reward and variety sequence. Actions are a varied lot. stealth and intercept is a relatively varied minigame contesting resolution of Actions.

Now, referenda are (generally) successfully resolved actions but unresolved consequences of negotiations. And similarly through inverse combat is (generally) unsuccessfully resolved actions, but unresolved consequences of violent encounters. However the resolution of consequences in votes, if favorable, turn a generally large benefit swing, but with a spectrum of results. Alas the card pool of tools for meaningful interaction tend to be woefully inadequate. And again similarly through inverse resolution of consequences of violent encounters, if favorable, turn a generally large benefit swing, but with an extremely narrow spectrum of results (almost down to on/off). Alas another inverse issue plagues combat, as the card pool of tools for meaningful interaction tends to be flooded with redundancy.

By trumps and redundancy in the card pools, combat becomes a fixed spectrum. And the spectrum offered has inadequate returns to entice meaningful interaction that leads to better positioning. So, the solution is not to beef up the race to the light switch, but to offer new switches and dials to laterally expand returns upon engagement.

I really like Azel's ideas. To broaden combat to have more game-effecting cards is what would make combat more interesting and meaningful.

There have been some discussion about combat disciplines and their use in something more than just punching vampires useless. I'm not against effects from "ordinary" combat disciplines that effect the whole game. On the other hand, there could be some considerations for combat cards for "non-ordinary" combat disciplines that effect the game:


Example (gain some more from at least somewhat effective combat using non-combat discipline):

Traumatic Experience
Type: Combat
Requires: Dominate
[dom] Play on an opposing minion after successfully inflicting 3+ damage during this combat. Only one Traumatic Experience can be played in combat. The opposing minion does not untap normally during his next untap phase. Burn this card during your untap phase.
[DOM] As above, but to burn this card, opposing minion must burn 2 blood (during your untap phase).


Also, ideas that Azel threw for new uses of "just combat" cards or disciplines were great.

Example (usual combat discipline, with lingering effect).

Still Wet Blood Stains
Type: Combat
Requires: Potence
[pot] Play on an opposing minion after successfully inflicting 3+ damage during this combat. The opposing minion can't take a directed action against you. Burn this card during your next untap phase.
[POT] As above, and this minion gains 1 blood.


There would be lot of places to have this kinds of effects for combat cards or combat disciplines. It just requires some peeking out of the box that is WoD canon... (Edit:) Options are limitless then.

Jussi wrote:

The opposing minion does not untap normally during his next untap phase.
...
The opposing minion can't take a directed action against you.

Just snipping it down to these two points, I would advise caution here.

Combat can already make the game un-fun for the opponent. This is difficult to quantify exactly, but roughly speaking... If I get bled or KRC-ed, I lose pool. This will make me lose over time, but my currently controlled minions can still do stuff. I can play cards, I can cycle my hand, I can try to win. When my minions get whacked about in combat, I typically lose the ability to do this - my minions are in torpor, and even though I have a potentially large buffer of pool, I may well not be able to do anything with it.

Effects such as these can mean that even if I survive combat without going to torpor (not impossible!), I'm still prevented from doing the fun things that allow me to try to win.

The general problem is - a regular combat deck may not be very good at winning, but it can often quite easily make other people lose. Effects like these can exacerbate this.

Jussi wrote:

As above, but to burn this card, opposing minion must burn 2 blood (during your untap phase).

Do be careful with things like this - if the card sticks around if you don't have blood, this sort of thing can have a disproportionate effect against the Imbued.

(I'm less worried about it having a disproportionate effect against, say, a Shambling Hordes deck.)

Azel wrote:

The combat game needs to be treated as an opportunity to interact with other player's resources.

Combat should be used as a window to insert other strategic effects.

Let it affect resource management outside of its own milieu.

I don't agree with this. We already have the action/reaction-mechanic which is used by a range of resource management and disruption effects. Moving those effects to the combat-mechanic seems forced. Would it add anything besides novelty value?