file First Strike vs. Strike: Combat Ends

07 Feb 2013 14:11 #44933 by Chaitan
Well, Mistress can play Thoughts Betrayed now and Samantha has access to an expensive retainer which negate S:CE also.

Best reason to change it is for clarity I guess.

First strike becomes... well... First.

S:CE could be set to First Strike: Combat Ends. To clarify where in the order it is resolved.

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07 Feb 2013 14:22 #44934 by Tdog
Combat has always been harder to do as a strategy. Changing this rule would go a long way towards making combat a real threat again, bringing variety to the game, but will it overpower the game? We run the risk of making bleeding adn voting too weak, everyone will play combat. I may have to horde alpha glint and the like.

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07 Feb 2013 14:24 #44935 by Ohlmann

Chaitan wrote: Samantha has access to an expensive retainer which negate S:CE also.


Which one ? Dog pack is unavailable to gangrel antitribu.

(regardless, I don't believe Shadow Feint to be stronger than Psyche even if it beat S:CE. It cost a blood and require two discipline after all)

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07 Feb 2013 14:37 #44936 by Pascal Bertrand

Ohlmann wrote: Dog pack is unavailable to gangrel antitribu.

Not with Biothaumaturgic Experiment ;)
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07 Feb 2013 15:23 #44937 by ReverendRevolver
Look, when i brought this up in the GB thread, the fluff stuff wasnt being used as a justification. I havent played vtm in almost ten years now, but i have been playing vtes for a few, and first strike being as weak as it is never made sense. Earth meld and majesty are obnoxiously strong cards, but i dont see a neex to change them. Even allowing some cards that grant first strike that beats sce would be an improvement, and wuick jab would make hosing sce with first strike slightly powerful, but its still a 2. Card combo in most cases that is still nothing to fortitude unless is becomes paired with a third card(thaum or dead hand) . I didnt really expect a huge amount of agreeance, but whats the sense of first strike if its not first? Im not a vtm purest or anything, wwef is a thaum ritual, psychic assault can burn vampires, bashing vs lethal matters in rpg, fortitude is passive, celerity anx protean is stupid broke, and you can powergame a setite from creTion with addictive blood and unbondable merits.


But it is the background. Card submissions should have references, so i used some along with the base logic that first strike sucks, and sce is by itsself the go-to combat package fod most decks. People complain about other things, but in all of vtes my problems are lilliths needs to be mandatory with the skill card, memories of mortality should have just been erratad to not help imbued, and first strike is stupid weak compared to sce, dodge, +strength, additional strikes, and fortitude. So basically all of combat. Muddled vaml hunter with a clak jacket is still the best use of first strike i know of, since eleimele h costs so much.

I was never asking for a rule change, just stating how counter intuitive first strike rules are, and stressing people suggest illogical rules changes to good rules when a bad mechanic is on the books.
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07 Feb 2013 15:43 #44938 by Ohlmann

ReverendRevolver wrote: I havent played vtm in almost ten years


It's sad :(

ReverendRevolver wrote: I was [...] just stating how counter intuitive first strike rules are


The argument seem pretty compelling for changing the rule, but I believe that making everyone re-learn the read so that future new player have a more logical rule seem a bad trade-off.

Again, I don't believe the rule should stay as it is at all cost. It's just that the change must be worthwhile. Making a rule arguably more logical don't cut it in my opinion.

(I have understood that ReverendRevolver does not try to push the change, but I believe the argument he show is both a good one and needing a caveat)

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