file SPLIT: Ashur Tablets and Liquidation

15 Mar 2019 15:05 - 15 Mar 2019 19:17 #94081 by Kraus
Split from:
www.vekn.net/forum/event-reports-and-twd/77485-twd-visit-from-the-capuchin-newark-oh

As a relatively new player, the deck / combo seems degenerate.

Oh, it is. But that's mostly Ashur Tablets. Of course, Ashurs wouldn't be that bad if MMPA wouldn't be that easy to do (or could be done at all), but Ashur tablets is basically the main culprit in the end product (if not the root).

They would be good even if they didn't have the 'add 1 to hand' clause or if they only added back minion cards (not masters). They have some narrow hate cards in the game, mainly Trochomancy, but it's really narrow and only counters Legionnaires besides Ashur decks.

It's not on the levels of "Old Villein + Lilith's Blessing" broken, but it's demoralizing.

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Last edit: 15 Mar 2019 19:17 by Kraus.
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15 Mar 2019 18:56 #94082 by Mewcat
Well liquid is a lot more pool gain per master phase and can be recycled with ashurs, so I think it's a solid cog in the machine.

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15 Mar 2019 19:04 #94083 by Kushiel

Mewcat wrote: Well liquid is a lot more pool gain per master phase and can be recycled with ashurs, so I think it's a solid cog in the machine.


Agreed that it's an important part, but it's not the core issue.

Liquidation without Ashurs? Strong, but not overpowered.
Ashurs without Liquidation? Still broken.

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15 Mar 2019 19:04 - 15 Mar 2019 19:06 #94084 by Kraus

Mewcat wrote: Well liquid is a lot more pool gain per master phase and can be recycled with ashurs, so I think it's a solid cog in the machine.

For sure. I just think that Liquidation could be a fun, albeit clunky recursion enabler if we had all the other recursion in the game but no Ashurs. Legionnaires are obviously strong and they benefit from Liquidation a lot. The rest of the recursion techs are just jank, which Liquidation sort of enables. Shamblers are of course strongish, but haven't dominated tables in such a long time.

That said, I'd hate to see Liquidation banned just because of Ashurs (it doesn't break other combos, just makes them kinda better), but it feels to me like the Ashur errata should've been printed in the Berlin Anthology boxes already, if anything would've been done with it.

So, I really don't know. If there is one thing I would like to see toned in any direction in the game, it would be Ashur + Liquidation combo. I mean after the Villein errata, which we got (thank all the gods and spirit animals and everything). I just don't know which would be better: Ashur errata (no masters recurred and no "1 to hand") or Liquidation ban. The latter would be cleaner but I don't prefer it because of Necromancy jank.

But I guess we could do another thread on this if peeps want to discuss it further. I guess peeps would?

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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Last edit: 15 Mar 2019 19:06 by Kraus.

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15 Mar 2019 19:05 #94085 by Mewcat

TwoRazorReign wrote:

DJHedgehog wrote:

LivesByProxy wrote: You say it was made and played specifically for Ben Peal who was in attendance. Did you perchance have a point to prove? What did he say about this monstrosity?


Ben made the finals, as well as Mewcat. I think his reaction was modest until I recurred a Banishment and went from 3 pool and probably losing to 11 pool and in total control of the game (Ashurs + liquid + voter cap). The power of liquid ashurs is in pool gain and crafting your deck with the recursion, with the added benefit of choosing a card that best fits your immediate future.

My point is that liquidation and (mostly) ashurs are bad for the game. I made a few critical decisions, but mostly I just played masters in my hands and outlasted my predator with pool gain until my deck was thinned out and I could just make my deck whatever I want. That type of recursion shouldn't exist in this game.


You're talking like the Ashurs Tablets + Liquidation combo is something new you just discovered. It's been around for more than a decade now. The "point" you're making is old news.

Mewcat wrote: He was 1 gw, 7 vp in 2 rounds. You don't need acceleration when u make piles of pool in master phase. People have to play risky to oust you, basically suiciding, which I did end 2 and mark did in finals.


That's really the rub, isn't it. To outpace the pool gain you really have to lean into them. And it's true that it cost both of you dearly.


This sounds like sour grapes. Maybe a deck that is considered "risky" when it needs to bleed for a lot should lose in a tournament?


Being required to tap out every turn to pace actionless pool gain is problematic, maybe.

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15 Mar 2019 19:08 - 15 Mar 2019 19:08 #94086 by Mewcat
@jraus

Neither really seem appropriate to me. Game should be about vampires taking and blocking actions and other things should support that, not replace it.
Last edit: 15 Mar 2019 19:08 by Mewcat.

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