file Combat as a strategy

04 Sep 2019 08:47 #96777 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Combat as a strategy

Bloodartist wrote:
I suspect he is referring to (and I agree) the inherent elements in VTES that can cause a player to "have no game" due to having no minions that can act. In my opinion the LEAST fun situation is when you cannot do anything. This is something that game design should actively try to move away from, and Black chantry has done that, by introducing the pentex change.


BC is doing a good work, but they are doing it so sloooow. Villein and Pentex should be day 1 decitions, all first printings should be filled with erratas.

And actually answer to @self biased - the problem of combat in a nutshel is that some (most) of its varieties are aiming to give "no game" situation to other players. It may be with rushes to torpor, or just blocking everything meaningfull or something. Obviously not only combat is doing this, but other things are kind of a corner case (usually involving actions of a high cap vampire) while combat is a universal mechanic, open to everybody.

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04 Sep 2019 09:50 - 04 Sep 2019 09:51 #96780 by Lech
Replied by Lech on topic Combat as a strategy
How much a game you have when you got bleed for 6 at stealth ?

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Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Last edit: 04 Sep 2019 09:51 by Lech.
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04 Sep 2019 10:18 #96781 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Combat as a strategy

Lech wrote: How much a game you have when you got bleed for 6 at stealth ?


I play deflection? :huh:

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04 Sep 2019 10:42 - 04 Sep 2019 10:43 #96782 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Combat as a strategy

elotar wrote:

Bloodartist wrote: Combat can also do this, but I have had no true issues with it yet; I can change my decks to be more durable against combat (In fact my local meta has always been quite conbat-oriented so I have a headstart maybe). Other people can do it too. Adapt your decks! Don't just netdeck TWDA decks from 15 years away and complain that they don't work...


This works in MTG, but it's fundamentally flawed approach to VtES. While in first one you can play for 10 minutes, lose, than hastily switch couple x4 blocks of cards and play a new game, in VtES you will be loosing for two agonizing hours, the table will be unbalanced so other players will suffer a bad game too, then you will need to solve quite a complicated issue of changing you deck, which rarely takes me less then couple hours and for new player it will take much longer.


Well. Obvioulsy you are right. A beginner to any game will have difficulties doing meaningfull things in his first few games. And well, it happens that in vtes each and every one of those games will last 45 min at the very least and often more like 1h30/2h00.

But if you want to change that, you will need to change the core which will not be vtes anymore. Even if you decide to call it this way.

As I said several times in this topic we had the pleasure to welcome several new players in our local games this past year. Some of them had some issues against combat and tried different tech to address those issues. Obvioulsy it took some times to make those changes. (Actually we could count it in weeks because again of the length of the game). And finally, (with the help of some more seasoned players) each one chose its own path. One of them changed grouping for his Lasombra vote and bleed to Lasombra presence with the addition of majesties and some nocturns. An other added some mental maze to her Lutz deck with a couple metro underground and an other one decided to skip entirely the anti combat package in her horde B/S deck counting on the number and the smallness of her crypt.

And you know what ? None of them complained about combat. They just accepted that it exists and decided how to deal with it.

(And to those that think that they don't encounter combat enough to have a grasp at what you call "abusive combat" in my EC training I played mainly my 3 decks of the EC, 2 of them being what you would call "abusive combat" one of them being specifically weenie DBR with 14 bum's, and 11 graverobbing and obvioulsy Watenda 1 out of 2 games in average.)

elotar wrote:

Lech wrote: How much a game you have when you got bleed for 6 at stealth ?


I play deflection? :huh:


So why not playing Rolling ?
Last edit: 04 Sep 2019 10:43 by Timo.
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04 Sep 2019 10:54 #96783 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic Combat as a strategy

elotar wrote:

Lech wrote: How much a game you have when you got bleed for 6 at stealth ?


I play deflection? :huh:

Unless they bleed with Enkil Cog during someone else's turn and DI your Deflection. U ded.

How does this compare to combat?

You'll survive that combat monster by: playing Majesty.

...unless they play Immortal Grapple and follow up with Disarm.

This shows that all three of the triangle - combat, bleed and vote - have their own enablers and counters and counter-counters. When you are ousted you are out of the game - so you practically have no game. When your vamps get torporized at least you can still use your pool and try to rescue your guys. Effectively not out of the game.

Now, before it gets added _again_ that combat _shouldn't_ be compared to bleed and vote, with the _current_ card pool it should as it is an ousting mechanism. Fame etc. That is not an opinion.

If it's fun or not - some players enjoy dying quickly, others enjoy the struggle of surviving. Arguably combat allows the latter better than stealthing for the oust.

So, I for the life of me can't understand why combat is such a problem for you guys. Compared to Computer Hacking + Brainwash most combat decks are child's play.

Combat is not a fundamental design flaw if many people enjoy it. Both on the receiving end, and when delivering. I'm guessing, if it were so oppressive, that I would see a lot more complaints about it in our local meta of 10+ people and the Finnish meta of 30+ competitive people.

If some people find it sad, then... well that's just your opinion. I grew up in a meta where the old beards played mostly just combat, you wouldn't survive without 50+ red cards in your deck and stealth bleeds were destroyed with prejudice just because people thought that they were boring, oppressive and wouldn't let others play their game. Which was grindy AF punch-fests. That's what the meta in my youth enjoyed.

It's all about perspective and how you follow your play style up as a person.

Hopefully my last cents in this thread, concluding my view: saying Combat is a flawed design choice and makes the whole gaming experience objectively worse is a flawed argument that doesn't hold water.

Personal, subjective opinions are another thing of course. You're entitled to yours. Please, people, everyone, present them as such.

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04 Sep 2019 11:51 #96784 by elotar
Replied by elotar on topic Combat as a strategy

Kraus wrote:

elotar wrote:

Lech wrote: How much a game you have when you got bleed for 6 at stealth ?


I play deflection? :huh:


Unless they bleed with Enkil Cog during someone else's turn and DI your Deflection. U ded.

How does this compare to combat?

You'll survive that combat monster by: playing Majesty.

...unless they play Immortal Grapple ...


When I play deflection usual scenario will be that my prey will be "ded", some obscure corner case scenario, which I see coming from at least turn before, will be not so good.

When I play majesty actually usual scenario will be that I will meet something opponent uses to surpass such common defense, from Grapple, Psych or other dedicated cards to just rush with two more weenies, and rare lucky scenario that I will lose 1 blood against opponent loosing nothing.

If you don't see the difference than I don't know why you are wasting pixels.

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