[Submission] Celerity fixes

But how to make Potence better?

A topic for another thread in that detail. Please refrain from side tracking topics.

jblacey wrote:

I feel there are multiple threads in this conversation so I'm going to address some of them in different statements.

1) Combat is one of the least efficient paths to victory, as a result cards that enable combat decks are less common in twda.

True, but it's not on topic.

jblacey wrote:

2) Celerity is very efficient at combat, but rarely used outside of combat thus has an incorrect perception of being weak.

Entire thread is based upon notion that Celerity ISN'T very efficient at combat for a discipline that is based upon combat effects, and as it don't have outside of combat effects it should be at least better in combat that disciplines that have non-combat usage (as animalism) and than disciplineless combat (WWS, just guns, T:V).

While celerity could have more effects outside of combat (like for example stealth card that uses physical combat cards to be canceled creating new usage for cel/pot/for card for you and blocking vampire), it should be really good at actual combat too, and it's combo with another combat discipline like potence/fortitude/quietus should be formidable - at the moment it isn't).

jblacey wrote:

3) Potence is very inefficient at combat and primarily usage of the discipline only supports a combat victory condition.

Sure, and it's better to discuss it in another thread.

jblacey wrote:

Possible Solutions:

1) Create a usage of Potence and Celerity that supports a path to victory outside of combat. (Working on that)

2) Make Potence better at supporting combat so that it isn't outclassed by Target: Vitals and Walking Sticks, neither of which require a discipline. Thus when combat is better supported, Potence will be better represented.

1) it could use some help but making benefiting from combat should be primary goal.

2) problem with potence is that it's both telegraphed and too much reliant on strikes which is not working well with strike based celerity (dodges).

Lech wrote:

Entire thread is based upon notion that Celerity ISN'T very efficient at combat for a discipline

Then I disagree with your notion and can provide data that disproves that theory. I can (and have) built several celerity decks that dominate combat. Where the deck falls down is forward pressure and a lack of non-combat bleed defense. Celerity + Guns is a deck archetype (with or without Auspex).

Celerity + .44, not celerity +guns, as it suggest different guns used which isn't the case.

Lech wrote:

Celerity + .44, not celerity +guns, as it suggest different guns used which isn't the case.

It is one of 4 usually:

.44 is standard issue if the deck isn't heavy combat. 2R with a manuever is very efficient.

If the deck is heavy combat/celerity then the Desert Eagle is the correct gun. 2R for 1 pool. That 1 pool cost is very important.

If you are being a wall, then sniper rifle. Just set range and be done with it.

If you can get it out for cheap, then nothing is better than the Assault Rifle.

Classic Toreador bruise/bleed is usually .44
Anarch guns or weenie celerity is Desert Eagle.
Smiling jack decks using uses Sniper Rifle.
My Toreador Grand Ball deck, my Brujah/Brujah Anti vote/combat, my Assamite contract hunter, my Illusions of the Kindred/Horrid Reality, and my weenie Tzimisce Bauble deck "if you have to absolutely kill every mother****** in the room" all use Assault Rifles.

jblacey wrote:

Lech wrote:

Entire thread is based upon notion that Celerity ISN'T very efficient at combat for a discipline

Then I disagree with your notion and can provide data that disproves that theory. I can (and have) built several celerity decks that dominate combat. Where the deck falls down is forward pressure and a lack of non-combat bleed defense. Celerity + Guns is a deck archetype (with or without Auspex).

Ah, but is grand, is a joke unless you're anarch and/or have

And yes, 44 is the most common, but deagle and sniper rifle aren't uncommon, it's just I prefer 44s, because the rifles suck at rushing and I seldom run decks where I use enough separate minions needing guns to where double the cost is expensive.

Celerity in vtm does things that are easy to reflect in vtes, but are barely touched upon, such as damage mitigation and multiple actions a turn. Yes, additional strikes, Zephyr, and sideslip are things, but 2 of what I just mentioned are only on one card, and is needed.
Twice ever is exciting: when it's on the same vamp as to forced march, and when it's on an anarch with to forced march and diversion.
The almost third time is when it's in a non-titled support malk who can be field trained up to superior. But since the goal is superior, it doesn't count as being happy about basic celerity.