file Proxies and the VEKN

05 Feb 2011 19:49 - 05 Feb 2011 19:50 #1056 by Amenophobis
There is a large thread on the NG going on about varios things regarding proxies, tournamen play and stuff.

As a sideline, I brought VEKN proxies into the discussion.
(I know, I know, again... :whistle:)

Me:

> I don't think all cards should be allowed as proxies. There are some
> that would be possible candidates. Mostly cards from KoT and HttB,
> which are now hard to get, as print runs have been downsized over the
> years (according to The Lasombra).


Peter:
Why not allow all cards as proxies? Why allow, say, Villein proxies
(of which I have enough to make any deck I want to play in a
tournament that has Villeins), but not Shadow Twin (of which I have,
like, 3 but would like 25 for a deck) proxies? Why do some cards
justify proxies and others don't?



As stated above, I think there is no need to allow all cards, just those that are in (a perceived?) short supply (see above).
Shadow Twins are readily available on ebay, Enkil Cogs are not.

Me:

> Those proxy cards could have some kine of small seal saying "VEKN:
> legal for tournament play" or "VEKN: legal proxy". Players print them
> out and put them in opaque sleeves together with regular cards.

Peter:
At which point they are still easier to pick out in a deck than the
non proxies. And what is to stop someone from adjusting the wording on
the proxies if they are playing in a situation where they think they
can get away with that sort of thing?


Well, nothing is absolutely failproof, granted. However, up until now, there have been no reported incidents of counterfeit in VTES, so I assume, the urge to cheat is not that strong.

To make things more "official", those cards could be manufactured at one of those online printers (have no URL at hand). Only if they are thus printed, they count as official.
Or have them issued as "promos" by VEKN itself at events. I assume that would be appreciated. B)
Last edit: 05 Feb 2011 19:50 by Amenophobis.

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05 Feb 2011 21:16 - 05 Feb 2011 21:17 #1060 by bakija
Replied by bakija on topic Proxies and the VEKN

Amenophobis wrote: As stated above, I think there is no need to allow all cards, just those that are in (a perceived?) short supply (see above).


But why differentiate? Why are some cards in short supply and others aren't? Who decides?

Shadow Twins are readily available on ebay, Enkil Cogs are not.


I can get a New Carthage on e-bay for 20 bucks. But I don't want to. If someone can use a proxy Enkil Cog in an official tournament (due to someone arbitrarily deciding that Enkil Cog "deserves" to be an officially proxiable card, or whatever), why should I be able to use a proxy New Carthage? And if I can use a proxy New Carthage, I'm sure that there is someone who needs to use proxy Dreams of the Sphinx.

I'm not at all opposed to proxy cards in casual play. I'm only opposed to proxy cards in official competitive play for completely practical reasons. But if there are going to be proxy cards allowed in official competitive play, even hypothetically, I can't for the life of me see why it would only be that *some* cards would be allowed to be proxied and others not. If you are going to allow proxies? Allow proxies.

Well, nothing is absolutely failproof, granted. However, up until now, there have been no reported incidents of counterfeit in VTES, so I assume, the urge to cheat is not that strong.


I'm not actually that concerned about people cheating through proxy use (see: my long standing arguments against other anti-cheating measures such as deck lists). But use of proxies can easily result in unintentional errors and extra confusion.
Last edit: 05 Feb 2011 21:17 by bakija.

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05 Feb 2011 23:31 #1063 by Amenophobis
Replied by Amenophobis on topic Proxies and the VEKN

bakija wrote: But why differentiate? Why are some cards in short supply and others aren't? Who decides?

You must have missed me stating that according to The Lasombra the sizes of print runs have been continually decreased over the years.
KoT and HttB is sold out at the Distributor level and quite hard to get at retail level nowadays (at reasonable prices).
KoT was a big base-set with a small portion of new cards. That being the case, the new rares are somewhat rarer than the rares in other sets (just like 3rd Ed.).
Enkil Cog (as an example) is a card that can go in just about any superstar deck. I own 1. I wouldn't lend it to any other player in my group, as I need it. I would love to have 10 more of it, but - hard to get at even remotely reasonable prices.

bakija wrote:

Shadow Twins are readily available on ebay, Enkil Cogs are not.

I can get a New Carthage on e-bay for 20 bucks. But I don't want to. If someone can use a proxy Enkil Cog in an official tournament (due to someone arbitrarily deciding that Enkil Cog "deserves" to be an officially proxiable card, or whatever), why should I be able to use a proxy New Carthage? And if I can use a proxy New Carthage, I'm sure that there is someone who needs to use proxy Dreams of the Sphinx.

Dreams of the Sphinx is readily available. It was printed in AH, FN, KMW, 3rd and HttB. It's in no way as hard to obtain than e.g. Enkil Cog.
I seem to fail to understand that you cannot see the differences. :(

bakija wrote: I'm not at all opposed to proxy cards in casual play. I'm only opposed to proxy cards in official competitive play for completely practical reasons. But if there are going to be proxy cards allowed in official competitive play, even hypothetically, I can't for the life of me see why it would only be that *some* cards would be allowed to be proxied and others not. If you are going to allow proxies? Allow proxies.

Proxies are a crutch. They should be used where necessary. Trading for Dreams of the Sphinx is a magnitude easier than for Enkil Cog. Cards that are readily available don't need to be proxied. VTES is still a TCG, this should not change for the most part.

bakija wrote:

Well, nothing is absolutely failproof, granted. However, up until now, there have been no reported incidents of counterfeit in VTES, so I assume, the urge to cheat is not that strong.

I'm not actually that concerned about people cheating through proxy use (see: my long standing arguments against other anti-cheating measures such as deck lists). But use of proxies can easily result in unintentional errors and extra confusion.

Therefore, only officially approved proxies should be allowed. Not just anything selfmade. This could be really easy to implement.

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06 Feb 2011 00:46 - 06 Feb 2011 00:48 #1064 by Nick M
Replied by Nick M on topic Proxies and the VEKN

Amenophobis wrote: Therefore, only officially approved proxies should be allowed. Not just anything selfmade. This could be really easy to implement.


I agree with this. Proxies that have some 'official' status could be possible. Through means like you suggest (online printers)

Nick
Last edit: 06 Feb 2011 00:48 by Nick M. Reason: incomplete message

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06 Feb 2011 02:05 #1065 by Adonai
Replied by Adonai on topic Proxies and the VEKN
Printing proxies violates copyright.

I'm against proxies in tournament play.

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06 Feb 2011 05:08 #1071 by drstrange26
Replied by drstrange26 on topic Proxies and the VEKN
I saw the post on the newsgroup about this.
I cannot help but comment about proxies.
1)Proxies during friendly games are fine especially given the state of affairs/White Wolf
2)Proxies in tournaments are a very difficult issue to handle.
3)Ultimatly if the player base remaines intact or we introduce new players the second party/third party resale market for VTES sealed or singles in say 5 years will be astronomical given the basic wear on cards and play. Typical supply and demand.
Little supply and high demand.
4)There are currently wholesale and retail VTES boxes/boosters availiable. Allowing proxies in tournaments would hurt these sales of business who continue to keep VTES in stock and ultimatly keep the game alive and give the community hope of someone picking up the game.

Concerning issue 2) I propose that we fix this issue by allowing only proxies in tournaments of cards that a player has a real copy of to present the table.
This resolves issues of modifying proxies for advantage (Cheating).
Concerning issue 3) This issue is solved by allowing proxying in tournaments but ultimatly there will still be value in rare/unique cards which only have 1 per deck.
4) If the card is still available in a wholesale/retail capacity (not 2nd hand or 3rd hand market) proxies cannot be allowed. Every tourneyment month V:EKN can publish a list of avaliable sets. So for example Arika(Camarilla reprint) can be proxied but Gotsdam(KOT starter) couldnt because there are Ventrue Precons still avaliable.

As a side note, I think its important to spell out that a proxy is actually a photostatic representation of the original card presented above. Im sorry but if I played against a hand drawn deflection which I sure would be better than the card art for Heirs to Blood I would still not like reading the card.

May the Winds of Wattomb not blow through your nether region
DR.

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