Proxies and the VEKN

Suoli wrote:

Shockwave wrote:

I'm with Lasombra / Bakija on this. If you must have proxies, allow any, don't come up with some arbitrary list because what is rare in one playgroup may not be for all.

I agree, don't make it arbitrary, take a look at what cards are in very limited supply and in very high demand. Consider allowing proxies for those cards. Don't allow every card to be proxied, though. That would kill any chance of a company picking up the game again.

I

I want more Preternatural Strength and another Yawp Court. Neither are currently available on Ebay. Who decides if I can use proxies for these cards?

Meanwhile, there are currently Ashur Tablets on Ebay so would they be allowed to be proxied?

When does a card become in limited supply? How many copies have to be available for purchase before the card is no longer in limited supply? How soon before a tournament is the list of proxiable cards developed?

What is to stop somebody from putting cards up on Ebay to ensure that the cards aren't in limited supply and yet high enough priced that they won't get purchased?

How are the answers to these questions anything but arbitrarily decided?

Gargoylee wrote:

I want more Preternatural Strength and another Yawp Court. Neither are currently available on Ebay. Who decides if I can use proxies for these cards?

VEKN should make the decision.

Meanwhile, there are currently Ashur Tablets on Ebay so would they be allowed to be proxied?

Judgment call. If it was decided that certain proxies would be allowed and someone asked my opinion I would say that Ashur Tablets should be allowed.

When does a card become in limited supply? How many copies have to be available for purchase before the card is no longer in limited supply? How soon before a tournament is the list of proxiable cards developed?

Judgment call. This should be worked out on a case by case basis.

What is to stop somebody from putting cards up on Ebay to ensure that the cards aren't in limited supply and yet high enough priced that they won't get purchased?

That's one of the reasons that it should be a judgment call instead of a binding blanket rule.

How are the answers to these questions anything but arbitrarily decided?

How is the minimum crypt size any less arbitrarily decided? Or minimum library size? Or the card text on Deep Song? Would you say these judgment calls are arbitrary?

Suoli wrote:

That's what you keep saying. Can you tell me why it has to be all or nothing instead of a case by case decision?

'Cause making a random, arbitrary list of "cards that are allowed to be proxied" (and while I realize that you think that making a list of "hard to find, high demand" cards isn't random or arbitrary, it might as well be) adds all the negatives of proxies while few of the advanatges.

The main advantage of proxies? It puts all players on an even keel. With proxies, all players have access to all cards in whatever number they want. Which allows folks to make any decks they want without having to deal with card access. Which has a lot to recommend it. If you instead just have *some* cards available to be proxied, you get a lot of disadvantage (practical issues, card value issues, hypothetical companies not wanting to invest in a game where you don't need to buy many cards issues) with only limited advantage (i.e. not having all players on an even keel, card wise).

Yeah, some folks don't have enough Ashur Tablets and Villeins to build a deck with. Everyone has some cards that they don't have enough of to build a deck they want to make. Why are the Ashur Tablets and Villeins (neither of which are actually needed to make a competitive deck) cards that make the cut for Official Proxy, say, while countless other cards don't?

Suoli wrote:

How is the minimum crypt size any less arbitrarily decided? Or minimum library size? Or the card text on Deep Song? Would you say these judgment calls are arbitrary?

Now I might be wrong, as the earliest rule book I can currently find is from Final Nights, but...

It would appear that the minimum crypt size was decided by Richard Garfield. So while it might have been an arbitrary decision on his part - it might have been a carefully considered mathematical equation which resulted in the minimum crypt size being 12 cards.

Similarly the condition that the library have at least 40 cards and up to an additional 10 cards per player at the table seems to have been a decision of the games creator...

While those decisions might have been arbitrary, given they would appear to have been the decisions of Garfield I would guess (and it is only a guess given his background) that they were carefully and mathematically decided.

Now, I'm not entirely sure of where/who suggested that 5 players per table was the optimal number or that players could assume a five player table and make 90 card decks and avoid altering their decks between rounds of a tournament. Similarly, card text, was probably the decision of ????, LSJ, and various other individuals over time after feedback from play testers?

Perhaps LSJ could answer if those decisions were arbitrary or not?

bakija wrote:

The main advantage of proxies? It puts all players on an even keel. With proxies, all players have access to all cards in whatever number they want. Which allows folks to make any decks they want without having to deal with card access. Which has a lot to recommend it. If you instead just have *some* cards available to be proxied, you get a lot of disadvantage (practical issues, card value issues, hypothetical companies not wanting to invest in a game where you don't need to buy many cards issues) with only limited advantage (i.e. not having all players on an even keel, card wise).

I don't agree that allowing some proxies is equally disadvantageous as allowing all proxies or that the disadvantages and the number of proxies have a linear relationship. I argue that allowing any proxies has too big disadvantages but for some specific cards the disadvantages are smaller than the advantages. Again, M:TG, a more profit driven game than V:TES, allows a small number of proxies and it probably makes financial sense for them to do so. Allowing unlimited proxies wouldn't.

Yeah, some folks don't have enough Ashur Tablets and Villeins to build a deck with. Everyone has some cards that they don't have enough of to build a deck they want to make. Why are the Ashur Tablets and Villeins (neither of which are actually needed to make a competitive deck) cards that make the cut for Official Proxy, say, while countless other cards don't?

I don't have any numbers but I'm guessing that the demand/supply ratio is worse for Ashur Tablets than it is for any other card. Many cards are harder to get but you don't usually need 6 or more copies of those.

Gargoylee wrote:

Perhaps LSJ could answer if those decisions were arbitrary or not?

Of course they weren't arbitrary. They were carefully considered judgment calls. They weren't made with mathematical accuracy but they weren't arbitrary, either.