New set in 2012

KevinM wrote:

talonz wrote:

Most importantly it will split the playerbase...

Those players who will not recognize the PDF set as valid will not be able to act as tournament organizers or judges (and) won't be able to play in any official VTES tournaments, either.

As pointed out, this isn't entirely true.

If those players choose to segregate themselves due to their beliefs, they themselves will be responsible for the "split",

Of course, yet the catalyst is still the pdf set.

and while the community will (possibly) mourn their loss, the community is not responsible

We should mourn every loss! Everything we can do to maintain player interest and participation should always be our first concern! Without that, we have no community kevin. Maybe your playing community can survive the loss of half (perhaps more, perhaps less) of its players, but mine cannot.

And if the community initiated this via implementing the catalyst above *and* allowing/forcing noncards into tournament play, it *is* responsible.

Johannes, ill pm you on the cdn question if you like, but that is veering offtopic.

I am desperately considering how to find a solution to my issues with this set myself, as no one seems to be both understanding and interested in actual solutions to the problems I have presented so far.

Assuming the design team info is forthcoming and the cards are balanced, and the vekn does not change its decision to distribute and legalize for tourney play these cards, the only solution for me I can think while avoiding cardsleeves (because I think those are abominations personally) is;

Allow players to create their own proxies of the pdf cards.

This I think is the only way this would work for me and anyone else that feels the same way. I used to make proxies of giants blood/mylan with old jyahd cards or other wallpaper cards, with a good old fashioned ball point pen. Then I instead started making lists of what each deck needed for play out of my precious 'good pile' and inserted those before play instead.

Now I think this is the only solution remaining to me. Would the vekn support this solution?

talonz wrote:

Kushiel wrote:

I'm trying to see this from your point of view here, and having a tough time. To that end, what do you imagine that the process of creating a new set was, back when WW was doing it?

Its kind of pointless for me to speculate, so lets get to the point. You are implying that the process largely hasnt changed?

The process is largely the same as it was when WW produced the sets.

talonz wrote:

To alay my fears (in part) I would rather know;

-who the design team is (why is this kept secret anyways??)
-what their qualifications and experience is (its very common for designers to introduce themselves, explain their experience and view on the game and what they bring to the table, etc. why not do that here?)
-what the current design process is and how that differs if at all from the process under WW.

Did you read this: Designers' Diary ?

Some of your fears might be addressed there.

In the past, nobody know who the members of the design team were, except that LSJ was part of it (headed it).
As far as I can tell, the current design process is the same as in the past. Do you know how the design process and playtest process were for the WW-produced sets? Why do you care now?

The VEKN has been heavily involved with VTES and WW from the get go. It was the the VEKN who persuaded Steve Wieck to pick up VTES and produce sets.
It was the VEKN that started the continentals. LSJ was always a part of the VEKN Inner Circle and acted also as rules-representatve for WW.
Members of the VEKN created the WW Strategy Guide.
Members of the VEKN have always been involved with creating cards for sets and playtestgin. Nothing has changed.

What has changed is that LSJ stepped down and Pascal took his job. He is a more than worthy successor.
LSJ is no longer designing the sets. Other people previously heavily involved with WW and the VEKN are doing that now. They may or may not disclose themselves to the public.

LSJ has never disclosed the members of the Rules Team or the Design Team. Yet you seem to be satisfied with the way the things were in the past.

You didn't answer Johannes, our VEKN chairman, who was politely aksing you direct questions. Are you sidestepping too direct questzions?

As others have pointed out, you seem to be involved with VTES in your country, why not become NC and try to make things better from the inside?

talonz wrote:

Johannes, ill pm you on the cdn question if you like, but that is veering offtopic.

I am desperately considering how to find a solution to my issues with this set myself, as no one seems to be both understanding and interested in actual solutions to the problems I have presented so far.

Assuming the design team info is forthcoming and the cards are balanced, and the vekn does not change its decision to distribute and legalize for tourney play these cards, the only solution for me I can think while avoiding cardsleeves (because I think those are abominations personally) is;

Allow players to create their own proxies of the pdf cards.

This I think is the only way this would work for me and anyone else that feels the same way. I used to make proxies of giants blood/mylan with old jyahd cards or other wallpaper cards, with a good old fashioned ball point pen. Then I instead started making lists of what each deck needed for play out of my precious 'good pile' and inserted those before play instead.

Now I think this is the only solution remaining to me. Would the vekn support this solution?

For the sake of the lazy guys, please be so kind and restate in a short summary what your problems are.

talonz wrote:

Assuming the design team info is forthcoming and the cards are balanced, and the vekn does not change its decision to distribute and legalize for tourney play these cards, the only solution for me I can think while avoiding cardsleeves (because I think those are abominations personally) is;

Allow players to create their own proxies of the pdf cards.

I'm still puzzled what the big issue is.

In casual play (and I would guess that most VTES play is casual play), you can use proxies (heck, I'd encourage people to use proxies). Use Esteems for Enkil Cog or Eyes of the Dead for Eyes of Argus. Use Ascendence, Smudge, and Conquest of Humanity for whatever new cards there might be.

But maybe a couple of times a year, if you attend a VEKN tournament, you might need to make some minor adjustments. Either, A.) use sleeves with a color printout, or B.) play a deck without the new cards (people still occasionally bring all Jyhad '94 decks to tournaments).

People keep complaining about sleeves, but there are a lot of small adjustments players often have to make for formal tournaments:

- Some tournaments require deck lists. Some players hate deck lists, but if they want to attend that particular tourney, they either have to create and submit a deck list, choose a deck they're okay with submitting, or just not participate.

- Tournaments don't allow proxies (there are differing opinions on whether a color printout of the new cards, done in the officially suggested way, is truly a "proxy"). So borrow the cards you need from your friends. Or swap them out from your other decks (some players have the cards, but they are in a different deck, so they proxy them instead of swapping cards between decks every game).

* Some CCG's may require deck sleeves in their tournaments. Others take it a step further and prohibit some deck sleeves (mainly those with patterns and graphics, allowing only plain deck sleeves).



Unless you're attending a significant number of VEKN tournaments (and I think most playgroups aren't running that many all the time), it just seems like an occasional nuisance rather than a cataclysmic catastrophe.