New set in 2012

Aaron wrote:

Lönkka wrote:

Izaak wrote:

What you -and VEKN apparently as well- failed to realize is that the VAST majority of active players DO NOT read this forum. They aren't even registered here. They are pointed to VEKN.net (by me for example), see an annoying to read website in work unfriendly colors, with news updated 6 months ago (until yesterday).

I find that rather unlikely that with 1000 members on board we wouldn't have the vast majority of active players with us already.

If the forum/site is good the colours don't matter. YMMV.
Why update news for just the sake of it?

Isaak's points are valid.

There are lot of players that used to post semi-regularly to the newsgroup whom I have never seen post here, unless they are using unrecognizable new pseudonyms. That doesn't mean they are not reading, but I don't know if they are.

This forum is less user-friendly than the newsgroup. A lighter color scheme, like then one used on the VEKN in France forum, would be more visually pleasing. I'm not saying it's bad here, but I certainly preferred the newsgroup, which was finally killed a few months ago by inexplicable spambots.

I like the colors of the site. Many players don't post here. For example, in Polish League of V:tES (in just 2011) there were 112 unique players. Out of those i've seen posts of 4 players. In my playgroup there are 11 player (only 2 played in league), and just me who post here.

I didn't say I don't like the colors. I said they are office-unfriendly.

If you are browsing VEKN.net at work, anyone even glancing your screen knows you are doing something obscure. This in contrast with browsing the old usenet or most local VTES forums.

Izaak, I don't know you but to me it seems that you're quite anactive person who wants to be involved. Do you think you could put that energy into benefitting VEKN in some way? The organization needs energetic and active people!

I offered help, multiple times, to multiple people with very specific purposes and was turned down multiple times. It infuriates me that exactly the things I offered to do are STILL not done 13 months down the line.

The IC consists of people who have during the years devoted gargantuan amount of free time to this game without any compensation and keep on doing it. Insiniuating that they are in their current positions without any proper merits for their positions is quite insulting.

That is exactly why I'm saying this. The currect IC members are the same people who have "devoted gargantuan amount of free time to this game without any compensation". Yes, that's very nice of them and all, but the thing is -here it comes-, I don't see them doing it RIGHT NOW. And NOW is what matters.

I could go on here and put very specific examples, but that will just be seen as insults again so I'll leave that as an excersise to the reader.

Izaak wrote:

Yes and I have been trying to react to anything that sounded like constructive criticism with actions. There has been a lack of informations, I see that now and I am working on it. The same issue has come up in the NC forums and I reacted there a couple of weeks ago.

Yes I know this. I also know you want the best for the game and I appreciate that.

I also want to take this opportunity to thank you for trying to improve the communication to the players that are neither Prince or NC (like me), but actually do "maintain" a group of players and care as much, or maybe more, about VTES as anyone else.

I talked to some guys yesterday and I think this is the most important point indeed: communication. As Izaak already mentioned there are really many players who participate in the national forums (at least now and then) but don't in the international. So we should make certain, that those players in that national forums also get the important informations. Not through word of mouth but from an official VEKN-rep. If for ex. the dutch players read about the reasons for the PDF-version, get assured that it will thouroughly designed and playtested, know of the possibilities of participation in the process, get the offer of playtesting in their playgroup and to discuss the cards, then they will alter their point of view for sure at least a bit pro PDF and wouldn't threat to leave the game because they think there are just some crazy fans doing it.

So yes, Izaak, comms are the key.

I'm all for communications.
I've been bitching about the lack of it for quite a while.

I found the newsgroup horridly difficult to follow so much prefer this forum to it.


I see little point of trying to get people to burn out doing voluntary work for VEKN because it needs to be done now or NOW. Real Life TM wins over VEKN. And you won't run out of the things that need to be done. Ever.

But if you've been postponing the need-to-do things for quite some time AND have a guy who is willing and able to lend a hand and turn him down. Well, that is just plain bad and sad...

If lack of ratings is a problem I'm not really concerned. PErsonnally they never interested me one bit. I do understand why some people are interested in them though.


Hmmm, I noticed that we've kinda strayed off from the topic (New set in 2012). Perhaps a moderator should move the non-topic mails to another, more apropraite, discussion or open a new one?

Izaak wrote:

The IC consists of people who have during the years devoted gargantuan amount of free time to this game without any compensation and keep on doing it. Insiniuating that they are in their current positions without any proper merits for their positions is quite insulting.

That is exactly why I'm saying this. The currect IC members are the same people who have "devoted gargantuan amount of free time to this game without any compensation". Yes, that's very nice of them and all, but the thing is -here it comes-, I don't see them doing it RIGHT NOW. And NOW is what matters.

NOW is just a very thin cross-section of time.

I agree that people shouldn't be appointed solely based on past contributions, especially if they aren't going to be able to contribute much in the future. But past contributions can be a useful metric and track record to indicate the likelihood, intention, and potential of future contributions.

The IC position (and any other VEKN position including NC's and Princes) are purely volunteer positions. And most people have lives outside of VTES (work, family, other hobbies). For any given VEKN volunteer, you're going to have periods of massive activity, and periods of relative inactivity (when other obligations get in the way). Choosing an arbitrary NOW timeframe to measure performance isn't particularly useful.

In addition, don't forget that there are always going to be transition costs whenever you replace people. So if someone is busy NOW, and you replace that person with someone new, for all you know that new person could end up busy in a few months or a year, and then you'll need to find another replacement then. Continuity and consistency are what is important - especially since a lot of work is behind-the-scenes work or ongoing long-term projects.

If an official volunteer does need to take an extended absence and/or feels like he/she cannot fulfill his/her duties in the near future, then yes, they should definitely step down or find a temporary replacement. But I don't think a revolving door scenario where you're constantly replacing people the moment they're temporarily inactive, is useful for VEKN or most organizations.

Just like Izaak I am from the netherlands. This direct to-the-point comunication done by Izaak is not done by others, but done by some, a few, maybe many. I dont have the numbers on that.
I think it is irralivant to go into dept about how izaak should behave on the forum.

Izaak has a diffrent playgroup then us. And therefore the opinion of his playgroup is diffrent. Our plagroup is quite positive about the addition of new cards. There are some questions afcource about what and how, but I expect them to accept the non-white-wolf cards as legal for play whitout a big fuzz.

About the forum activity. It is true that a lot more players from the netherlands were viewing the google forum. Vekn is being viewed less. A reason might be very simple. Nothing new has been released, so it is not that important to keep up with the rules and errata´s anymore. There are a few more reasons, but they are already explained.

Also I already like to thank all the volunteers for investing their time in keeping vekn up and running and for the intention of releasing a set of cards. I have faith in the skill of the current design group especially since Ben Peal is in it. Keep it up!

Oortje